Range-Pointing Dog

My dogs are meat dogs. I'm more of a meat-hunter than a gentleman's hunter that does it solely for the sport. If I had time, I'd like to learn to kill deer by jumping out of the tree on top of them and slitting their throats; savage connection to nature I suppose. I'm a hunter, a shotgunner, and a bird dog enthusiast. I don't hunt deer b/c I can't do it with dogs and it doesn't satisfy my desire for pursuit and harvest. My dogs don't do anything fancy (they point and back...sometimes) and neither do I. Only in the past few years have I even attempted to control my "game-hog" mentality. Pheasants and quail are 2nd only to KC strips at my house. Wife, kids, and I have to ration them when we eat them. I'm tellin' ya folks, it's a big deal at our house.

As far as ranging is concerned; when I'm hunting locally I like to let 'em run. I just hope they'll adjust when we hunt pheasants out west, especially during late season. Again, I am very interested in putting birds in the bag. Paying for birds at a game farm just isn't the same as consuming the birds I've harvested using my preferred method (putting in "work" w/ my pups).

To all posters, thanks for the interesting posts and for keeping out the negative crap:thumbsup:
 
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Kansasbrittany

The funny thing is, I know 100% where your comming from.. But a little different. When Im salmon fishing, I don't really relax and have a good time until Ive nailed that first fish. After that, I can relax. It only takes 1 to make me happy, everything after that is just icing on the cake. But when it comes to bird hunting, for me, its more about the dog then the kill. I think thats why I enjoy watching my dog run trials so much. In the American Brittany Club AKC/AF trials, no birds are killed, but yet I think I have as much fun watching my dog run in trials as I do hunting over her.
 
V-John said:
I'm the hardest on them, and can tell you their faults. I'd rather brag on other's dogs, like Setternut's Setter, Ace. He's coming along very nicely, and finds birds, and looks nice doing it. He loves birds, and does his job and does it well. He loves his dad too. :)
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Thanks John for the kind words.

And John doesn't brag about his dogs, and he sure would be justified to speak highly of them. Everyone's dogs have things that they wish they did better, but John's don't have many issues.

When John and I hunt together, his crew is pretty much running farther out than Ace. At least I assume that they are because I can't see them much of the time. But that could be just because you can't see a Vizsla in prairie grass :D

But getting back to the range topic. When you hunt dogs with different ranges at the same time, you still see all the dog pointing their share of birds. At least in the kind of cover we have here. But in larger thinner cover, I think the bigger running dogs will have more bird contacts on average. Also when you are hunting edge cover, like in a field trial, but bigger runners are going to get to the birds first. But I feel that the closer working dogs may tend to have a slightly higher % of bird shot per bird pointed.

Then on the other hand once birds have been found, the closer working dog may be easier to keep on the birds. For example singles on quail.

So when all is said and done, dog with different ranges have their +/-. So it comes down to what your preference is.

I would like a little more range in Ace, but I don't know that I would want Ace out as far as the big running dogs tend to work.



Maybe we need to start a thread on dog color , tails and visibility in the field :D
 
I think it's okay to say positive things that you like about your dog on a forum, right? Maybe even tiptoe the line of bragging a bit... As long as you're not putting somebody else down, what's the harm?
 
Toad said:
I think it's okay to say positive things that you like about your dog on a forum, right? Maybe even tiptoe the line of bragging a bit... As long as you're not putting somebody else down, what's the harm?
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No harm, non at all! I just try not to do it, cause the moment I do, they for sure will prove me wrong! :rolleyes:
 
kansasbrittany- really- you want to jump out of a tree and grad a wild deer and kill it

I tried it- said I'd ride one down to my uncle- not sure what happened when I slipped off the tree branch and landed on the doe- maybe I was too far off the ground

interesting that you say your Britt's point and back-"sometimes" what does that mean

I like mine to stay inside 1/4 mile- we've had issues- we are progressing and almost have it down- I don't have a shock collar

pheasants are and can be pointed and held from close to 1/4 mile

mine generally run 200-400 yards- but they do swing in- it's what I want
most times we hit a field there aren't pheasants every 50 yards- I want mine covering ground- we usually eat up a 1/4 mile and move on- fields I like are a 1/2 X 1/2 mile or bigger- there isn't to big a field for me to put mine down on
 
Range of Pointing Breed Dogs

Here is the area I come from. If you have a pointing dog let him be such. If your dog is bumping birds he is not trained well enough. If we want a flushing dog go get a lab. I field trial as well. I have never had a problem hunting over my biggest running dogs on foot. I try to train for all possible scenarios, but I have found no two finds to be a like. There is always something different from one bird find o the next. My dogs have to point birds and handle them to the level they are at before I will shoot birds for them. If not you teach your dog real quick to do as little as they need to to get rewarded. If you have not done so hunting behind a highly trained FC or AFC is a joy! We kiddingly call it gentlemen hunting. They hunt for you and not you chasing and following the dog. It helps bring kids up and helps them improve their shooting skills. The youngster can get set up and use proper shooting skills. You can only realize what I am talking about if you have done it.
I run my dogs on pheasants, to Quail to Prairie Chickens. They adjust to the cover and hunt for me. I don't have to have them in sight or inside gun range. They are pointing dogs. Do they trip on a bird or bump one occasionally? You bet, but they don't get rewarded then either for not getting it right. My hunting is about the dogs not the limit of birds I come home with.
 
Shadow said:
kansasbrittany- really- you want to jump out of a tree and grad a wild deer and kill it

I tried it- said I'd ride one down to my uncle- not sure what happened when I slipped off the tree branch and landed on the doe- maybe I was too far off the ground

interesting that you say your Britt's point and back-"sometimes" what does that mean
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Some times; like, not all the time:D

My britts back EVERY time, it's the GWP that loses control every once in awhile and moves in too close. He honors, he's just not solid in doing so. He's an adopted/rescue dog that has only recently been introduced to hunting. I don't even plan to "polish" him. He makes a better friend than bird dog. I don't believe I've ever hunted behind a brit that wouldn't honor.

The deer comment--Yes, it would take something as exciting as killing a deer with my bare hands to get me interested in hunting deer. Now if I could hunt them w/ my dogs, I probably would.

Original thread topic--meat hunters don't want their dogs running way ahead on pheasants. "Gentleman hunters" might, but meat hunters don't. One of my grandfathers was a "gentleman hunter" while the other was a "meat hunter." The kind of Gentleman that my grandfather was....well, let's just say he didn't have a connection to the dogs like I do with mine. They were tools; just tools that he could brag about and entertain his buddies with. I saw him shoot many a dog in the ass b/c he didn't own shock collars. Dogs were very disposable to him. 3 were put down in my presence, in the field, before their first season was completed.

The other grampa had dogs that he loved to gather food with. That's what they did, that's what they enjoyed. He even shot rabbits around them and they didn't chase rabbits (I don't).

Both guys had dogs that pointed, both had dogs that backed. One just let his dogs range futher than the other did. One was interested in putting birds in the bag, the other reminds me so much of Shadow it ain't funny (that is, his approach and expectations of his bird dogs; certainly not implying Shadow does all the other things I mentioned!!!). I guess I fall somewhere in between, but I'll still shoot a bumped bird. They eat just as good.
 
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Range

Kansasbrittany: There are a ton of Brits or other pointing breeds that won't back. Everyone that doesn't is for a different reason as well. I used to have one that looked nicer backing than many dogs did pointing. Sometimes it's the dog doesn't respect the pointing dog, sometimes thay are not trained well enough to acknowledge and perform the task.
Backing is like retrieving. Being a natural instinct or not. It should be reinforced so the dog knows is doing it because you expect him too, not because he wants to. A big difference in the idea.
One thing I will never do is put the word always in front of a thought I have about my dog. It leaves it open for the dog to make a mistake and do it to you. After all they are only dogs. Not robots. I have developed many FC's and AFC's in my career training dogs. They have their good days and bad days just like we all do. No place better to be on a fall day other then behind a nice brace of dogs hunting to the front.
 
Denny said:
Kansasbrittany: There are a ton of Brits or other pointing breeds that won't back.
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I, uh.......ok. My statement was, "I haven't seen one." Wasn't implying they don't exist. I've never had a brit that didn't, neither did either of my Grampa's. I must have hunted behind 20 of their dogs, every one honored instinctively. Gramps wasn't any better at training bird dogs than I am.

I have 1 GWP in my kennel that doesn't back well. He doesn't back b/c I never taught him to. We're working on it, not aggressively, but we're working on it. Working on it means, running him w/ the other dogs and trying to steady him while another dog is down.

Not too worried about "fixing" it b/c IT DOES NOT BOTHER ME, except when other people's dogs are on the ground. HE PUTS A LOT OF BIRDS IN THE BAG! As close as he hunts to me, I don't care if he converts to a flushing dog:thumbsup: The Brit and the GSP can take care of the big running and pointing stuff. I'll just leave him in the truck when other guys have their dogs out. I felt bad one time for him creeping, but it didn't cause me any other problems throughout the season.
 
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Denny- I like how you said that- tip my cap to you

KB- we've all had pointing dogs that weren't superb backers- "ones that froze when they saw another dog on point"

creeping in on another dog who has locked up isn't the same as a dog that won't honor- no excuse for a pointing dog who runs arround behind or in front, or busting in- on a dog on point- manners- and if it takes a shock collar- that's not a dog that honors

it's just that- state if your dog is a sure fire backer or it isn't- before you turn that dog loose in a field with a pointing backing dog- I've seen a young dog ruined because the other dog wouldn't back-

run a sometimes backer with another sometimes backer- don't say it backs when one knows it might not
 
I agree with Denny 100%! Wanna see a brittany that doesn't back? Come out to a brittany AKC field trial some time. Ive seen lots of them blow backs. And they were very nice dogs. In the heat of the moment, even the best dogs screw up now and then...... As far as a dog being a natural backer, thats a tough call. I don't think Id want a dog that backs naturally. I want a dog that hates to back, but understands they are expected to back. I want a dog that is competitive, if its backing, it means it didn't get to the bird first...... I watched my dog run in a horseback Gun Dog trial last spring. She was just screwing around and not getting anything done. Her bracemate was putting down a pretty nice race while my dog was going for a little stroll in the park. The other dog locked up on a bird, and my dog was about 50 yards away. The trainer called my dog in to force a back. It was hilarious. My dog saw the other dog standing, and locked up as well. But she wasn't standing pretty with her head high and her tail up. She had her head low, her tail low, and she pouted. You could tell she knew that she had to honor because she's been screwing around. BUT, it also ticked her off. For the last 15 minutes of the trial, my dog was pissed and smoked the other dog. But, it was too late, and she had already blown it in the first 15 minutes. My dog backs pretty darn well, but she's not a fan of it, and if she had the choice, while the other dog was standing, she go right by and try to find a bird out farther then the other dog. But she also knows better, and TriTronics helps her remember really quick! But I love that about her.. Here's a picture of her backing when she was 14 months old.

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I think you're missing the point- I run 2 to 4 dogs at a time

they have to back- honor another dog on point- or you don't hunt them together- picture of my female at 4 months backing- she was a natural- she still has it- she has a nose- she will freeze as soon as she she's another dog standing tall- she exspects as well as I do- that when she points she'll be honored as well-

I don't buy it- I've been hunting 2-4 dogs for 30 some years- they all must be willing to honor another dog on point- or you put them in the dog box

field trials are one thing- hunting 2-5 real good pointing dogs together is another thing-
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We hunt a lot of dogs together at times as well. In SD this fall we will have 10-12 dogs for 7 people hunting with at least 3-4 dogs down at all times. Doesn't change the fact that the dogs won't perform 100%, 100% of the time. Im sure we will see a blown back, one of them will most likely bump a bird, and hell, one of them won't stop on whoa without a little electricity from the TriTronics. But thats hunting, and thats what happens when you have animals that aren't robots... They make mistakes, and sometimes they just do what they want to do. Thats why we are constantly training when we are hunting, and my dog doesn't go in the field without her e-collar. I don't care if a dog backs naturally, or if it takes some training. As long as the dog backs 95% of the time, thats all that matters.
 
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like I said- I hunt 2-4 at a time- they all back- we expect any other dog on the ground with us to do likewise

we don't get on the ground with dogs with shock collars
 
Old School- it hasn't been easy- but it's rewarding- mine pretty much stay inside 1/4 mile, handle to the whistle- back when they see another on point

I'd like to see anyone walk with me with 1,2,3, or 4 of mine on the ground and explain to me why I need a shock collar

always have said- you have a real good dog- then hunt it without a shock collar-
 
Shadow, I agree, I'm old school as well. It was a chore, but my Britts learned to quit chasing trash, and learned to back and handle. Never seen an electric collar. I've trained dozens of dogs, mostly setters and pointers, never needed a collar. Went to French Britts when my last pointer died. Thought they might be softer, if anything, harder tempered, gamey boogers to the core. Spent a year trash breaking, with progress followed by backsliding, pointed solid, ( everything), from the start, figured out we were bird hunters only in that year, backing came along shortly, interestingly retrieving was the final component, probably because due to health issues of mine, not enough early live bird exposure. At 4, 3, and 2 now, I hunt them all together, without fear of chaos. Would feel secure they would obey the rules in any company. Just not a fan of shortcuts. I believe if we use shortcuts to solve problems and then we breed those dogs who need electronic stimulation to behave, then pretty soon all we have are dogs who need electronic stimulation to become birddogs. If you need beepers, need to send out a constant verbal assault, or blasting away non stop on an acme thunderer, or use a GPS tracking collar, provide electronic stimulation when all else fails, or whenever you feel like it, then I would prefer to hunt elsewhere with someone else, several miles away. On the other hand, I enjoy a dog handling on foot or horseback, on the edge, finding and holding birds in big open country. Range is just a demonstration of skill, a talented dog can run as big as it wants. We used to have a term for them, "covey dogs", dogs who were born to cover extreme range and find quail coveys. Usually after the shooting, those dogs showing little interest in being "hacked in", took off in search of a new covey, while the thorough "singles" dogs worked the remainder of the covey. Both have their nitch, both effective. As the old saying goes " I shoot coveys for the thrill, singles for money".
 
Shadow said:
I think you're missing the point- I run 2 to 4 dogs at a time

I don't buy it- I've been hunting 2-4 dogs for 30 some years- they all must be willing to honor another dog on point- or you put them in the dog box
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I'm not sure what point I missed, but rest assured, my dogs are just the way I like 'em. I run several dogs at the same time as well:confused:

I wasn't trying to "sell" you on anything. The dog that occasionally makes a mistake is not going to be left in the dog box. He's like a close-ranging pointing lab (with long wirey hair) that shines when it comes to retrieving. He's very effective on tight-sitting roosters and single quail that I know I'd miss if it weren't for him. The occasional creep doesn't cause enough trouble to warrant action IMO. Besides, he has a great deal of personality and everyone just enjoys having him in the field.

We may enjoy a "social" together someday, but we probably won't be running our dogs together:)
 
Shadow said:
Old School- it hasn't been easy- but it's rewarding- mine pretty much stay inside 1/4 mile, handle to the whistle- back when they see another on point

I'd like to see anyone walk with me with 1,2,3, or 4 of mine on the ground and explain to me why I need a shock collar

always have said- you have a real good dog- then hunt it without a shock collar-
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Shadow, I don't need e-collars on my dogs either when it comes to controlling them. However, I do put e-collars on them most of the time mainly as a safety measure. My concern is that a dog gets on or close to a road with traffic coming. I can get them back with the whistle but just in case the conditions might be such that the dog can't hear me I have the e-collar to stop them. I know, might never happen, but I rather have the dog wearing that collar than being a dead dog. Another reason they will be wearing collars this year is the fact I finally got beeper collars so I can find them on point in the heavy cover.

So please don't automatically assume a person can't control their dog because the dog is wearing an e-collar. There are other reasons a hunter might have one on his/her dog.
 
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