Question for you setter guys

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duckn66

Well-known member
Ok I'll have to admit I am a secret admirer of setters. There I said it.

I do have a question for you though. Do you guys trim their coats to help keep the burs etc out?

What are some of the bigger running lines?

What about red setters? Are there good lines? I kind of like the look of those too.
 
I sometimes trim mine a little bit.

I've only owned two but have been around more and hunted with the breed for 15-16 years - I think in regards to their coats and maintenance it depends on the line you go with.

Troy has more experience with them than I do so he can probably expand more.


The two I've owned didnt have much belly hair - really the only thing I ever needed to be concerned about was the feathering on the tail, legs and ears. The dogs are usually pretty self maintaining -- I have always kept mine inside -- they usually do what I call "molt" or shed HEAVIILY - once a year -- usually spring time -- when this starts to happen I shear them down to the skin. I have better stuff to do than spend an hour brushing them every day to keep the hair down in the house.
 
There is a lot of diversity in setter lines as well as there is in their coat. I do prefer a flatter coated setter though I would take a good heavy coated dog over a poor, flatter coated dog. I have owned setters since 1985 and have been breeding since 1995. I generally hunt pheasants more than I do quail due to my initial exposure to bird hunting. As such, I tend to own and breed close to medium range dogs that I can turn out on CRP and see most of the time. I don't want them to languor in range most of the time, and I also don't want to feel that I'm hunting the dog more than the birds. As such, I tend to mix grouse strain setters with shooting dog and NSTRA back grounded lines. I do tend to stay away from "All Age" bred dogs that would often have a range that would make them difficult to hunt pheasants with. Many of the bigger running dogs have Tekoa Mountain Sunrise, Shadow Oak Bo, Bozeanne Mosley, Thor, etc. lines. I use plenty of Smith kennel, Grouse Ridge, Cover Dog, Long Gone, and Tricky Dick lines. You ask what the bigger running lines are. Is that to find one or to avoid one? You do need to understand the range of each of the trial types in order to talk about range. The all-age dogs can run 1/2 to 2 miles ahead of the gallery. Shooting dog range might hit 500-800 yards, while grouse dogs can hit 500 easily in open country, but often spend most of their time at 100-300. NSTRA will vary by region but would fit somewhere in the grouse to shooting dog parameters with bloodlines overlapping all trial types. That can probably be said about all the trial types. Some bloodlines will be found in every type trial. How they are mixed is the art of it.

As for grooming, I put my dogs on the bench the week before season and from the middle of the ribs down I put my fingers in the hair like a comb and cut anything sticking out off with scissors. I clean out their arm pits and groin and often cut much of the hair out of their feet. Their ears get trimmed and the tail I thin and shorten some. Beyond that, I leave it alone. Having the hair that short (1/2 to 5/8 inch) doesn't allow the burs to roll up. They usually can be easily removed with a metal rake style comb without significant discomfort to the dog or my fingers.
 
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I used to trim mine up back when southeast Kansas actually had cockle burrs. Take a look at the Bondhu bred llewellin lines. Great gundogs that we bred into our lines back in the day. They were beautiful dogs also.

I will try and pull out a few pedigree's that will show what most of the great dogs will go back to. I believe I have some 5 generation pedigree's that will go back to the 1930's. If you don't want to go down the Llewellin line, look for dogs that go back to Tomoka and Grouse Ridge John.
 
It's a funny thing about Llewellins, many are advertised today as "Gentleman's Gundogs" when around the early 1900's they were the breed winning the all-age championships. Llewellins, like English Setters, have as much diversity within their breed as you can find out there. Grouse Ridge John was produced here in Kansas and is Tomoka and Grouse Ridge Will's sire. Tomoka is one of the 3 Hall-of-Fame champions produced in Elmer Smith's kennel. They produced many more champions, but Destinare, Tomoka, and The Performer made the Hall-of-Fame. I have a lot of all 3 in my dogs.
 
Grouse Ridge John was born, bred, and trained 2 minutes from my house. His original name was Johnsons Skyhigh Duke before C.A. sold him to Dr. Flanagan. All the Skyrocket and Skyhigh dogs were owned by C.A. Skyrocket Dan was the best of em all. A couple of those females in Grouse Ridge John's pedigree were owned by my Grandad. C.A. and I co owned a couple of dogs together.

http://www.gundogcentral.com/view_p...6378&title=CH GROUSE RIDGE JOHN&generations=4
 
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I know a guy who used to trial setters a long time ago and I think he said his dogs were "sunrise" lines???

Bowhunter was that in SE KS?
 
Prairie Drifter said:
It's a funny thing about Llewellins, many are advertised today as "Gentleman's Gundogs" when around the early 1900's they were the breed winning the all-age championships. Llewellins, like English Setters, have as much diversity within their breed as you can find out there. Grouse Ridge John was produced here in Kansas and is Tomoka and Grouse Ridge Will's sire. Tomoka is one of the 3 Hall-of-Fame champions produced in Elmer Smith's kennel. They produced many more champions, but Destinare, Tomoka, and The Performer made the Hall-of-Fame. I have a lot of all 3 in my dogs.
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C.A. bred Babe, a littermate to John, with imported semen from the Bondhu lines. He got 2 females. I hunted over one for quite some time. Then we bred one to a male that C.A. and I co owned. That was the absolute best litter of pups. I kept one female and she was simply the best hunting dog ever known to man. I did all of her training but to be honest she was a natural. She was 1.5 years old and I sent her to Scott Miller for force fetching. Scott Miller is the best trainer in the world and world famous. He has won the National Birdhunter's Association Top Handler of the year award for 10 consecutive years. When he had my dog there, he said my dog was the best dog in his kennel (he had several FC there) and the best setter he had ever seen.
 
I trim my setter up a couple times in the summer. His feathering is really the only thing that gets burrs. 95% of the time they are no big deal he might come home with 1 or 2 burs which he pulls out in short order. But every once in a while he will find a real nice cocklebur field to run through and we will spend a half hour or so removing burs.

Which is one of my favorite moments hunting with Ox. He had got into some thick cockleburs and had a couple in his paw. So I stopped and was pulling them out of his paw for him. Ox saw that I had burs stuck to my coat, so he started pulling them off of me. Here we were in the middle of the field pulling burs off each other at the same time. He's a pretty sweet dog.
 
While I have a Brittany, he has long feathers on his tail stub, back of legs, and undercarriage. He gets all these cut off right before the season starts because they are a bur magnet.
 
After years of setters, and trialing, I would say that the " all age" setter is where you find him! You get a lot of useful hunting dogs of all lines in the breed, you get some shooting dogs along the way, and very few "all age" dogs. All age pointer hit the road and expect you to find them! Setters seem to have an ability to get way out there, and find their way on course, or in a hunting situation. some of those big runners, adjust their range if you leave the horse at home! If you expect that as the goal, (and a lot don't), you have to breed the ones that can do it, even then they will drop a lot of good hunting dogs, foot trialing dogs, and horseback shooting dogs, for one or two who run for three hours at the brink, and finding, and holding birds. A lot of big runners are "covey" dogs, don't stick around to find singles, most are not retrievers, (they were not encouraged). Back in the day, we had single's dog who cleaned up and was very seldom out of range, usually an experienced bitch. Pheasants and all-age dogs are mutually exclusive, they hold them as long as they can, but probably not till you can find them without a mounted scout! Wild heavily pressured quail can be the same! By the way, if you read the report of the "all age" trials, you will see the line, "lost from judgment, at 1:31" in a three hour trial! I assume you get the drift. They do have mounted scouts who try to keep them on the course.They use tracking collars, that after judgment ceases, so they can find them. Giddy-up! It's a thrill to see a jam up performance. By the way, a setter won the last two National Championships. Happens in February. Coat is an issue, most of the running dogs have a thinner coat and are lighter weight and on their feet. Trimming is probably mandatory, even the AKC show champs are trimmed when they are in the field, forgoing any benched or conformation shows.
 
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I have had Irish, Red, Gordon and Llewellin setters. Love them all and had good bird dogs from all of them. My weakest hunter was actually a Red, but that was mostly due to me not doing enough research on the breeder before I bought the pup.

You can get pretty much anything you want in a setter. I have Llewellin setter right now and really like them. I have one that is big running, and the one I lost this fall was a medium range dog much like Troy's dogs. I have run the bigger running dog in AF trials with some success. I think he is bigger running than most people that hunt pheasants like, but on quail he is special.

I have a 5 month old Llew pup now that really has impressed me so far with his nose and retrieving. Think he is going to be a medium range dog which is just what I wanted to pair up with my bigger running dog.

The coats very greatly in my dogs. One is really light, I don't trim him. The Gordon Setters have had the heavier coats, which I used to trim up.

But you can get anything you want in the setters.
 
Steve where did you get Indy and ace?

I really like the looks of the red setters too but maybe tough to find a good one then ???
 
Duckn if I recall you run a pointer now?


So does this mean you've seen the light and are going to upgrade? :D


I'll spare the pointer jokes ;) If you've ever subscribed to the Pointing Dog Journal and read Spaulding Hoffhacker you can get your fill there...ha
 
Ha ha kshusker. I used to have 3 EPs and am down to two now. One young and one veteran of about 7.

I think I may still have that pdj at the house.

I've gotten so addicted to quail hunting that everywhere I go I look at a spot and wonder if there are birds on it. I was actually looking for a setter when I found Milo the veteran. Then I thiught I needed 1 more and ended up with 2 more. Back down to just 2 now. it will be a while before I'm ready but I still like to think about a setter from time to time.

I like the looks of the field bred red dogs though!

Bowhunter I was looking at them when I was looking at setters.
 
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duckn66 said:
Steve where did you get Indy and ace?

I really like the looks of the red setters too but maybe tough to find a good one then ???
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Indy is from Highcotton Llewellin's out of Alabama. He is the biggest running Llewellin I have seen.

Ace was from a breeder here in Manhattan that is no longer breeding. But he was mostly Bondhu lines. Ace was as good a pheasant dog as I have had. Medium range with lots of smarts. Sure miss him.

My new pup Tuck is from Houdini Llewellins. He is only 5 months old but I think he will likely be very good. Range will be medium, but Tuck is going to be a really solid retriever as well.

Man setters are fun :thumbsup:
 
I trim the feathering off of mine , never have done a full body trim. When He gets burs , i coat him in conditioner and comb them out. My setter is out of Tomoka and Toccoa lines. Hes got a ton of energy for sure! Good house pet too.
 
I am new to the setter world as well. Last spring I bought 2 littermates, a male and a female. I intended to start them and then sell them, I try to do a couple pups each year as a hobby. My personal dogs are 2 shorthairs and a pointer. These 2 setters have been awesome! I had always been told that setters are slow starters, and a pain in the but to keep clean. Neither of these things are true. I sold the male to my brother in law, and cant bring myself to sell the female, who is now in the house with the rest of my dogs (I keep telling my wife no one is interested in buying her). She has a great personality, has a great nose, awesome style, and tons of prey drive. The only thing I can fault her for, is she is not a super strong retriever. She is a sweetheart in the house and much better behaved than my pointer. In quail type cover she will range out to 100-150 yards sometimes 200. In CRP she stays under 100. On one side her grandpa is Private Ryan, and on the other her grandpa is Tomoka. Like I said I am new to setters, and don't know bloodlines that well yet, but am told that she is heavy in Smith bloodlines. All I know is that I would buy another out of this breeding in a heartbeat. She does get burs, but cleans the most of them out on her own. Usually the only ones I have to get off her are on her ears. At this point I do not intend to trim her, that is if I keep her.

She is 8 months old now, here is a picture taken over Christmas on a wild quail hunt in SE Kansas.
 
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