Question about breeder definitions and ethics

[fishinbrad]

Ok, a little background - back in March I bought a "started" 6 month old English Pointer from a breeder here in Indiana. Was told at the time that she had been on birds since 4 weeks old and points and holds and had several birds shot over her. So in the past 7 months we have had several life altering events and have moved twice, only to settle back in Indiana. So three weeks ago, I take her to a preserve for some quail (her first time out) and to put it bluntly, the dog (now 14 months old) is bird shy and gun shy as she can be. So I call the breeder looking for some help in the form of suggestions as to what I should do, and he proceeds to tell me that I "screwed that pup up", and that I should have had her on well over 200 birds by this point. I tell him that I simply did not have the time to do that due to my move, but even if I did, it would be cost prohibitive for someone to put a dog over that meany birds without having a full fledged training facility and/or wild birds at their disposal.

Long story short - the breeder ended our conversation abruptly by telling me to either figure it out or enjoy my pet, and hung up on me. I have tried several times to get back in touch, but he will not answer nor return my calls.

My question is: is this "normal" or "acceptable" behavior for a breeder? Should I push the issue? Thoughts and comments are welcome.

 

[Natty Bumpo]

The Good, The Bad and The Ugglllyyy.........

Long story short - the breeder ended our conversation abruptly by telling me to either figure it out or enjoy my pet, and hung up on me. I have tried several times to get back in touch, but he will not answer nor return my calls.

My question is: is this "normal" or "acceptable" behavior for a breeder? Should I push the issue? Thoughts and comments are welcome.

We've kept bird dogs for 50+ years.

NO this is NOT normal or acceptable behavior for an ethical dog breeder.

One problem is that the word a "started" bird dog can mean many things to many people. And it also sounds like the dog wasn't even introduced to the gun properly.

And I don't know what you mean by "bit shy", never heard of this term.

But it sounds like the dog would need to be brought along slowly, with lots of patience and love, and start all over at Square One with training for the field.

Good Luck.

NB

 

[fishinbrad]

We've kept bird dogs for 50+ years.

NO this is NOT normal or acceptable behavior for an ethical dog breeder.

One problem is that the word a "started" bird dog can mean many things to many people. And it also sounds like the dog wasn't even introduced to the gun properly.

And I don't know what you mean by "bit shy", never heard of this term.

But it sounds like the dog would need to be brought along slowly, with lots of patience and love, and start all over at Square One with training for the field.

Good Luck.

NB

Sorry. I meant BIRD shy. Changed above.

I agree about "what exactly is a started dog".

I am just about to the assumption that this guy is just a chronic liar, and operated nothing more than a puppy mill.

 

[Dakotazeb]

"Should you push the issue?" I wouldn't waste my time and money. Sounds like the breeder is bad news. I think you would be better off finding a very good trainer and spending the money on having him/her work with your dog. Even at 14 months your dog is still young. A good trainer should be able to correct any issues and bring your dog along on a proper training schedule. Provided the dog has the proper pedigree and background to be a good hunting dog. Good luck.

 

[UplandHntr]

My advice is to cut ties with the breeder. You know what you're dealing with so why try to keep the relationship going? You obviously have your work cut out for you but it can be done. Maybe you need some help,, maybe you dont. I dont know the specifics..

 

[fishinbrad]

I have found a trainer to take her in, and he thinks the pup can be helped. My issue with it all is that I spent the money for a started dog, and the only thing my dog KNEW how to do was how to eat and poop! Guess it's just another life lesson learned. Trust and reputation mean nothing anymore.

 

[Kismet]

What they ^ said.

I think you can get a half-dozen pheasant wings from ?GunDog? web site. Not expensive. Might start by putting one in an old sock and playing fetch in the house with the pup, then having it sit while you hide the sock in another room, and praise it extravagantly. Make it a game.

Takes time, and each pup is different, but the last two dogs I've had were 2.5 and 4-5 yrs old, respectively, and had not hunted or been trained in any way.

Worked out, just took time and lots of praise and encouragement.

No guarantees, but many dogs, even without the breed lineage, have turned out to be passable gun dogs.

Have fun, be safe.

 

[UplandHntr]

I have found a trainer to take her in, and he thinks the pup can be helped. My issue with it all is that I spent the money for a started dog, and the only thing my dog KNEW how to do was how to eat and poop! Guess it's just another life lesson learned. Trust and reputation mean nothing anymore.



Unfortunately, youre right

spend time with the trainer and dog prior to picking up. Then you see her abilities first hand and not depend of what he says being true or not.

Im not trying to rub it in.
He couldve even sent you utube videos of the dog working if youre not close by.
I wish you well. Just remember, its not the dogs fault. Give her some time. Im sure she'll come around

 

[fishinbrad]

My advice is to cut ties with the breeder. You know what you're dealing with so why try to keep the relationship going? You obviously have your work cut out for you but it can be done. Maybe you need some help,, maybe you dont. I dont know the specifics..

Unfortunately, youre right

spend time with the trainer and dog prior to picking up. Then you see her abilities first hand and not depend of what he says being true or not.

Im not trying to rub it in.
He couldve even sent you utube videos of the dog working if youre not close by.
I wish you well. Just remember, its not the dogs fault. Give her some time. Im sure she'll come around

Yeah, funny thing - I asked for videos on several occasions and his reply was always "I'm an old hunter not a computer guy"!

 

[Dakotazeb]

You said you got your dog at 6 months of age. It's not really possible to get a "started dog" at 6 months. At 6 months they may of had some exposure to birds and have been started on some basic obedience but that would be about it. They are still a young puppy at 6 months and you can't expect much at that age. I know there is not correct definition for the phrase started dog. But when I hear people using the term "Started Dog" I'm assuming a dog of approx. 1.5-2 years of age that has had a fair amount of training. I don't think it's fair for any breeder to call a 6 month old dog a "started dog". They should know better. But on the other hand you should probably have questioned the breeder more about just how much training the dog had been given and had him demonstrate in the field.

I don't know what you paid for your dog at 6 months. It shouldn't have been much more than puppy price. A true started dog that is 1.5-2 years old will bring $1,500 - 3,000.

 

[Dakotazeb]

fishinbrad, you have an excellent source for training and advice near you. The Conservation Bird Dog Club by Amo. They have lots going on and I'm sure be willing to help you. Might even get that pointer of yours running some NSTRA trials.

 

[fishinbrad]

You said you got your dog at 6 months of age. It's not really possible to get a "started dog" at 6 months. At 6 months they may of had some exposure to birds and have been started on some basic obedience but that would be about it. They are still a young puppy at 6 months and you can't expect much at that age. I know there is not correct definition for the phrase started dog. But when I hear people using the term "Started Dog" I'm assuming a dog of approx. 1.5-2 years of age that has had a fair amount of training. I don't think it's fair for any breeder to call a 6 month old dog a "started dog". They should know better. But on the other hand you should probably have questioned the breeder more about just how much training the dog had been given and had him demonstrate in the field.

I don't know what you paid for your dog at 6 months. It shouldn't have been much more than puppy price. A true started dog that is 1.5-2 years old will bring $1,500 - 3,000.

I understand that, and knew that going in, there was going to be some work on my part. I in no way expected her to jump outta the truck and lock up on the first bird, but she was scared of the bird, and wouldn't pay any attention to it all even well before she had any shots fired over her. I guess I expected a "started" dog would have some idea of what to do, and have been exposed to birds and gunfire. I feel confident that she is in good hands with the trainer, but only time (and money) will tell. I will say that I paid more for this one than what most puppies were going for. I honestly think that the breeder is tired of it, and is just selling puppies based on pedigree and nothing more. The trainer. After seeing her shy away from a quail, that there is no way that this pup has been started in any way shape or form.

 

[oldandnew]

Holy %$^&! I have seen pups about 6 months be darn near finished, I have had others who turned out to be fabulous dogs who were either bird shy, gun shy, or had little pointing influence, till they were much older. Obviously, this dog had a lot of negative pressure prior to you. It will take some time to fix, It might not be fixable! I don't want you discouraged but reality, you may spent a tidy sum and accomplish very little. One thing, dogs are notoriously routine oriented, by that I mean, especially young, introduced to a new family, a couple of home addresses, no bird or routine hunting exercises, all can contribute to the problem. Make the dog a friend, invited to the get together, let it sleep with you, take it on walks, introduce birds on the walks which become routine, use a bumper with bird scent, if live birds are a problem. Encourage ANY interest in the bird scent, I mean a BIG deal, over the top praise. Best bet, it takes game birds to help make the difference, bird flushed with enthusiasm is great, birds retrieved and mouthed exceptional. Any bird contact that is more successful than turning and running away from contact, is a home run, even if the dog grabs the bird and carried it off! Hot news, he's protecting that bird, it has value, and he took it with him, even if he eats it! Final advice is sometimes a health issue manifests itself with these symptoms. I have seen pups this age become cowardly, and shy, until the worms were eliminated. A pup will not be at his best, if he feels bad, both emotionally, ( the family atmosphere), and physically. If you are successful, you will see signs that it's working! Happy and ready to go on a scheduled walk. Go slowly, this is a young dog, it's personality is being formed, what you do, will make a difference, more than ever. One other thing, a lot of what you need can be solved by a bird dog trainer who has established dogs who know the drill! Do not underestimate the influence of experienced dogs. It is essential to combat gun-shy. Hopefully you can avoid that. At the end you will have knowledge and skills, that the jackass breeder will never have, hopefully a great dog! Good Luck, and give us a progress report.

 

[goldenboy]

I am a small breeder. I will show my potential buyers at 6-7 weeks of age what those pups will do with a live clipped wing birds in a pen. That is no way guarantees a hunting dog, but at that early age you can see which ones have more prey drive than others. I try up front to give as much truthful information as possible to potential buyers. Have I had people return dogs? Yes! But a good breeder will always take one of "his" dogs back because I know my pups and want to see them succeed. Sometimes the families do screw a dog up! That is the fact of dog owners. If you want a hunting dog the earlier you train and give that dog jobs to do, the better they will turn out. You probably should have waited to get a dog till your life was a little more settled, but I understand sometimes circumstances in life are not always in our hands. That being said 5 minutes a day teaching sit, stay, here is the foundation to all bird dog training. that is done without birds. In the end stay away from that breeder and make the best of the dog. When you pick the dog up from the trainer make sure he gives you as the handler some lessons to help you and the dog understand each other. Good luck.

 

[FCSpringer]

OK nothing wrong with your post, but please refrain from using names directly unless you have good things to say. Trashing breeders by name, well or anyone will not be tolerated. We have no idea if this is true, if your a disgruntle breeder yourself trying to make another look bad. Or just holding a grudge on someone. So chat about breeders in general but please refrain from trashing someone by name specifically. That is totally not cool. Thanks, carry on.:thumbsup:

 

[Uncle Buck]

We've kept bird dogs for 50+ years.

NO this is NOT normal or acceptable behavior for an ethical dog breeder.

One problem is that the word a "started" bird dog can mean many things to many people. And it also sounds like the dog wasn't even introduced to the gun properly.

And I don't know what you mean by "bit shy", never heard of this term.

But it sounds like the dog would need to be brought along slowly, with lots of patience and love, and start all over at Square One with training for the field.

Good Luck.

NB

Pretty much says it for me. As a new owner you were in a bad spot, but that did not help the situation.