Here a thought I have had reading posts and reviewing many past birddogs. Since it's puppy choosing time, consider this. What is most important, the breeding or the training? I think will all agree, that with all issues in developing a good birddog, we consider everything, breeding, dogs you've seen work, and we assume that with training, we will achieve a superior hunting partner. Here's the rub, discerning the breeding you want, as compared to the royal bred pedigree. It would be a mistake to choose all-game pointers or setters bloodlines to foot hunt small tracts, despite the National Championship monikers, But "cover" dog trial championships may get you where you want to be. I am convinced that most owners who state that their dog, "runs to far" are trying to make a horseback open country bred dog, into a cover type dog. Genetics will win out. I have seen a trainer completely make a "no account" dog into something special. Which is marvelous, but like in the race horse business, you have to FIND the guy with the good hands! Which brings me to the final thought. Breeding is an art. The idea that every pup, has the quality and the likelihood to develop into a lifetime hunter. despite being trained by the weekend warrior, even inexperience handlers who just take the dog hunting! So interview the breeder, find out their goal, do they produce hard knocking hunting dogs? or are they trying to with the all-age national championship? My experience is you can not do both! Even with the best handed trainer you can find and hire. Find the pup's, who overcome the deficiencies of the trainer, or you!
Quailty birddogs, breeding or training?
- Thread starter oldandnew
- Start date
mnaj_springer
New member
Did I miis it? Was there a question in there?
wesslpointer
New member
one for the birds
IS it a trick QUESTION? As long you have the right genetics its the BIRDS!!!!
IS it a trick QUESTION? As long you have the right genetics its the BIRDS!!!!
Based on your response, I would assume that you believe breeding is the key, with lots of birds? I can tell you a whole lot of great dogs were made that way. It gets more binding when you consider using the "best bloodlines" you can find, and get a pup out of an all-age champion bred to an all-age champion. Birds will stop it, where? If you hunt patchy cover, can you get a trainer to honed it down for serviceable work? Some will, they were put on earth to be shooting dogs, walking shooting dogs, etc. But can any trainer have the ability to create the dog he wants regardless of the pedigree, or is that a fools mission?
mnaj_springer
New member
Ok, if this is going to be a debate for people, let's clear things up... You're only referring to pointers, excluding spaniels and retrievers, right? And you're wanting to use the field trials as your benchmark for "success," correct?
My aim was pointing dogs, I don't not necessarily consider a field trial dog as epitome. It's a difficult task to make one, and that might not be the most satisfying dog to hunt over. I would also say, that a high strung Lab, who makes multiple marks at 500 yards, may not be a satisfying companion for a typical hunter. I have seen it both ways. Spaniels seem to be more standard performance-wise as a group. One of the issues I have is reading posts where pointing dogs range to far, as is out of gun range, this really means the dog is not steady. It could also be that the dog comes from far ranging genes. Do you want those bloodlines? It's a personal question, something to think about when you select a new pup. Horseback field trials are a completely different game, and most trailers don't even hunt! No emphasis at all on retrieving. But every hunter know how to recite the bloodlines of the runoff terror of the field!
Kismet
UPH Guru
Not a debate, just an experienced pheasant hunter wanting to discuss stuff.
All friendly and courteous and informative. Nice stuff.
Early on in adult life, I went to a field trial to see the dogs hunt. I didn't have a horse, so I didn't see the dogs hunt, but realized too much dog for a single guy and his gun.
Went to the International Dog Show in Chicago to see the hunting dogs a year or so later. Didn't see a lot of dogs that would hunt, but sure saw some beautiful animals and (to me) odd folks putting hair spray and the like on their dogs.
So...there's all sorts of breeding, training, and reasons for hunting breed ownership. Most don't suit me.
In all likelihood, I don't suit those dogs or people either.
I'd say find a breed you appreciate, then spend the time to ask about the breeders available, and TALK with them long before you pick a pup of whatever breed. If they don't have much to say, or are new to breeding, keep on looking.
If you are flexible and can accommodate a "not-right" dog who is going to be more a friend than a hunter to you, you'll find the search less stressful.
I think.
All friendly and courteous and informative. Nice stuff.
Early on in adult life, I went to a field trial to see the dogs hunt. I didn't have a horse, so I didn't see the dogs hunt, but realized too much dog for a single guy and his gun.
Went to the International Dog Show in Chicago to see the hunting dogs a year or so later. Didn't see a lot of dogs that would hunt, but sure saw some beautiful animals and (to me) odd folks putting hair spray and the like on their dogs.
So...there's all sorts of breeding, training, and reasons for hunting breed ownership. Most don't suit me.
In all likelihood, I don't suit those dogs or people either.
I'd say find a breed you appreciate, then spend the time to ask about the breeders available, and TALK with them long before you pick a pup of whatever breed. If they don't have much to say, or are new to breeding, keep on looking.
If you are flexible and can accommodate a "not-right" dog who is going to be more a friend than a hunter to you, you'll find the search less stressful.
I think.
Uncle Buck
New member
Breeding. Cannot make a champion of great hunting dog without nose and desire.
oldandnew...IMO a trainer cannot create the dog he wants regardless of the pedigree.
#1 Breeding - A well bred hunting dog is a sporting companion that adjust their range regardless of cover type, and maintains contact with the gunner.
#2 Training is usually needed to help remind the dog that we hunt together.
Wild birds are the real test for how well a dog is bred and trained.
#1 Breeding - A well bred hunting dog is a sporting companion that adjust their range regardless of cover type, and maintains contact with the gunner.
#2 Training is usually needed to help remind the dog that we hunt together.
Wild birds are the real test for how well a dog is bred and trained.
Toad
Active member
To put meat in the pot, I think experience is the more important than training or breeding. "Birds" as was said before...
1. Birds
2. Breeding
3. Health and physical conditioning
4. Training
This is coming from a meat hunter. I don't competitively trial, or even train my dogs beyond what is absolutely necessary. I also added "physical conditioning", because I think if you keep your dog lean and well conditioned it makes a huge difference, just like a human athlete.
1. Birds
2. Breeding
3. Health and physical conditioning
4. Training
This is coming from a meat hunter. I don't competitively trial, or even train my dogs beyond what is absolutely necessary. I also added "physical conditioning", because I think if you keep your dog lean and well conditioned it makes a huge difference, just like a human athlete.
I say good blood lines make it a lot easier. I dont think it is a must, but I believe it will increase your success rate and be less work. I also think you should get a blood line that has historically done what you are looking for the dog to do (if you want a field trial dog - buy field trial blood lines, if you want a close working dog - buy from closing working bloodlines)
Example: I am a first time trainer with my first GSP. I wasn't looking for good bloodlines or strong pedigree at all when I started my searh for a pup. I figured it was my first dog, so I didn't need top notch genetics because it was going to be such a learning experience. However, I found a pup who did come from a strong pedigree (sired by Brute Force - 2012 BDC World Championship Winner) and she has been very easy to train. The guy I bought her from made a comment that i will never forget. He said "If she doesn't turn out to be a good hunting dog, it will be your fault and not hers" and I couldnt agree more.
Thats my $.02 from a newbie first timer stand point
Example: I am a first time trainer with my first GSP. I wasn't looking for good bloodlines or strong pedigree at all when I started my searh for a pup. I figured it was my first dog, so I didn't need top notch genetics because it was going to be such a learning experience. However, I found a pup who did come from a strong pedigree (sired by Brute Force - 2012 BDC World Championship Winner) and she has been very easy to train. The guy I bought her from made a comment that i will never forget. He said "If she doesn't turn out to be a good hunting dog, it will be your fault and not hers" and I couldnt agree more.
Thats my $.02 from a newbie first timer stand point
You start with the best possible breeding and then go from there. The owner/trainer will determine the eventual outcome of the dog, but in order to meet your goal and get the best out of your dog, you need to make sure that you have the genetics to do so.
As a pro trainer once told me...
You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
As a pro trainer once told me...
You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
I think the experience and birds are very important, but you can't buy a puppy with experience. I guess you could buy a started/finished dog but I think that is besides the point.
My situation is a prime example of what you are trying to say Toad (at least I think so). I have my dog in great shape and she has great bloodlines and I would say good training, but what she is lacking is time with birds. She has had little to no "experience" with wild birds. She has been on stocked birds several times, but that is it. I only say her training is good (and not great) because she needs to be trained more on wild birds.
quail hound
Moderator
Almost any mutt can make at least a serviceable hunting dog so long as the "trainer" (owner) doesn't screw him up somehow, improper intro to guns is the easiest way to break a dog. Good breeding should insure you a dog of sound body and mind and give you an idea of potential. The kicker is birds, lots of birds. Put all three together and you might have something to be proud of.:cheers:
Uncle Buck
New member
Rather well put.
goldenboy
Well-known member
I breed dogs for guys who like to hunt. I think you can close your eyes, reach into the whelping box and pick out a hunting dog. I say that because I spend a lot of time finding the right pairing for my pups. Now I also have one owner who had one pup since she was 7 weeks old. he has another pup from the same litter that was returned to me because it was too much dog for the family! I asked him last week how the two of them compare in when hunting together? The one he has had since 7 weeks old and has been training all along is a way better hunting dog he says. The other dog who was not given much training for the first year of it's life struggles to stay on task and has developed bad habits. Both dogs hunt, retrieve, and by themselves you would say are great hunting dogs. But in the end it was the training at an early age that made the difference in those two dogs! So to answer your question I would say breeding has to be there but without training a good pedigree is just paper.
