Pointing Dogs and Retrieving

JMBZ71

JMBZ71

Member
I've always assumed that because pointing dogs provide close shooting, they're not bred for marking/retrieving skills. As several guys here have posted pics of their Brittany's retrieving, they must be an exception to this rule. I've never owned a pointing dog so I don't know a lot about them. Are my assumptions wrong? My next dog will most likely be a pointer, so I'm looking for a little education from some of you pointing dog gurus here.

Thanks in advance guys.
 
Whether it's a pointing breed or a non-pointing breed, I think all good hunting dogs should retrieve. And in any breed you will find those that are natural retrievers and those that are not. If the dog won't retrieve, or you want to improve it's retrieve, you will need to have the dog put through a Trained Retrieve Program (also called Force Fetch). But any hunting breed should be able to be taught to retrieve.

Having a dog that retrieves just kind of finishes the dog off and sure does make it more enjoyable in the field. Believe me, I know. I have a 7 year old female Brittany that won't retrieve. (My bad!) She is a great bird dog except for the retrieving and I really kick myself now for not having force broke when she was younger. My 2 year old Brittany is a retrieving nut and loves to fetch whatever you will throw. But I'm still dealing with a delivery issue. She likes to drop the bird about 5-6 feet from you and call it good.
 
I have two GSPs that both retrieve very well and want nothing more than to hand you the finished product so to speak. My older female who is now 4 and her daughter who is only 1 and some change are both natural retrievers. I looked for other good breed dogs when looking for a stud and retrieving was also something that I wanted from both parents. I have seen many pointing breeds who retrieve well. There is always the exception to every breed though, heck I have seen a lab that is affraid of water. If you reinforce it enough at a young age and build upon whatever natural ability the dog has you will do well for the most part with any breed. I hope you enjoy your next dog and do yourself a favor and make it a GSP:) Sorry just had to throw that last one in there.
 
Dakotazeb said:
Having a dog that retrieves just kind of finishes the dog off and sure does make it more enjoyable in the field. Believe me, I know. I have a 7 year old female Brittany that won't retrieve. (My bad!) She is a great bird dog except for the retrieving and I really kick myself now for not having force broke when she was younger. My 2 year old Brittany is a retrieving nut and loves to fetch whatever you will throw. But I'm still dealing with a delivery issue. She likes to drop the bird about 5-6 feet from you and call it good.
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That's interesting. My Dad & I each have 8 yr. old female Springers (from the same litter). My Dad's Springer established dominance over my Springer when they were just pups. The result has been that when I hunt my Springer alone, she'll retrieve for me; however, when I hunt her alongside my Dad's Springer, she honors the dominant role of his Springer by marking the bird and standing over it until his Springer arrives to claim it.
 
HUNTIN4FUN said:
I hope you enjoy your next dog and do yourself a favor and make it a GSP:) Sorry just had to throw that last one in there.
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Thanks. Glad to hear your GSP's are retrievers. I guess my assumption that pointing breeds aren't generally bred for retrieving skills is a fallacy. I've made a lot of mistakes that I don't intend to repeat with my next dog... choosing the right breed, the right breeder and getting the right training.

Zeb... what's the consensus on the appropriate age to have a pup go through force-fetch training?
 
JMBZ71 said:
Thanks. Glad to hear your GSP's are retrievers. I guess my assumption that pointing breeds aren't generally bred for retrieving skills is a fallacy. I've made a lot of mistakes that I don't intend to repeat with my next dog... choosing the right breed, the right breeder and getting the right training.

Zeb... what's the consensus on the appropriate age to have a pup go through force-fetch training?
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Well good luck to you and I hope you are happy in the end. I will answer with what I have been told while you wait for his reply. Many people will say between 6mo to 1 1/2 yrs is your best bet but you can still achieve pretty good results with dogs a little older. I personally would wait until around 9mo to a year to see what kind of dog you really have on your hands. Keep researching the breeds that interest you and do your homework on breeders and most likelly this won't be something you will even have to think about doing. There also some other good resources on this if you would like I can pm them to you.
 
I start with lines within the breed which are known to have a strong retrieving instinct. I think you may be confusing retrieving instinct, or lack thereof with "hunting dead". The english dogs sometimes, especially the males, don't care much for hunting dead birds. These are mostly big running covey type dogs, of open all age field trial extraction. if your on this site, not what your looking for. In pointing dogs bitches seem in general to be more interested in hunting dead and retrieving. FYI I have not had to force fetched a pointer or setter yet, been at it 40 years. Start playing fetch as soon as the pup comes home
 
JMBZ71 said:
I've always assumed that because pointing dogs provide close shooting, they're not bred for marking/retrieving skills. As several guys here have posted pics of their Brittany's retrieving, they must be an exception to this rule. I've never owned a pointing dog so I don't know a lot about them. Are my assumptions wrong? My next dog will most likely be a pointer, so I'm looking for a little education from some of you pointing dog gurus here.

Thanks in advance guys.
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There's two types of pointers head high, head to grown "hound" a lot of hounds are nearsighted. Many of the high headed pointers are not breed to retrieve. The Wesslpointer is the only one that I know of thats bread for depth perseption "marking", as well as its pointing. This makes it a very VERSTAL dog.
 
I have always had English pointers and these guys are correct they are a little less programmed to retrieve. I have seen many that retrieved anything and I had a female that would walk right past any dead bird. My 6 yr old female E. Pointer is very good at tracking and finding wounded birds but others i've had only wanted to hunt live birds but they were VERY good at it. If its going to be your first dog an EP, Brittney and a GSP female are generally easy to train and hunt. The german dogs and Brittneys are natural retrievers and generally good at finding dead birds. Good luck and have fun hunting with whatever dog you get.
 
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JMBZ71 said:
Zeb... what's the consensus on the appropriate age to have a pup go through force-fetch training?
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I'm not a trainer so this anwer is only based on my expereince. There are others on this site that I'm sure can provide more information. But my feeling is I would not put a young pup through FF. I would want to wait and see what the dog's natural retrieving abilities were. Probably let the dog go through a full hunting season to determine if FF is even going to be needed. However, I would work on retrieving exercises with the dog from the start. I feel a dog should probably be at least a year old and probably more like 1 1/2 to 2 years old before starting a FF program.
 
pheasantaddict said:
The pudelpointer, Deutsch Drahthaar, and Deutsch Kurzhaar have strong retrieving skills in land and water.
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I wount call these "natural retrivers" there instink is to shake an kill then eat or bury. "HARD MOUNTH" They need to be " condition retrive" to make them good retrivers.
 
Pointing Springers

For many good years I hunted with my female springer that naturally pointed, I don't know for sure but she came from quail country, and she was the best retrieving dog I ever shot over. I started hunting in 1965 so have seen a wide variety of very good dogs with very different personalities. For my money as long as the dog is easy to hunt with,enjoy. Good Hunting.
 
Wesselpointer, Isn't your dog 1/2 Deutsche Kurzhaar, ( German Shorthair, literally translated)?
I am glad you like your dog, and are enthusiastic, sounds like a good individual , I'm sure we would all like your dog as a hunting companion, but Wessel Pointer isn't a breed, it's an idea. Many years of selective breeding, able to demonstrate predictable traits, predictable conformation based on a written standard, are required to get a new breed recognized. Demand will depend upon the qualities exhibited by the dogs themselves, over a the course of a human lifetime of performance. Best dog I ever owned, was a Pointer/ Setter cross, I guess I should have named it a Pointsetta?
 
Best dog I ever owned, was a Pointer/ Setter cross, I guess I should have named it a Pointsetta?
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:thumbsup: I love it! :)

A wesselpointer has about as much chance of catching on a when GCB was going to start a new breed with a Viszla accidentally bred his EP. Or something like that. The guys on this site took him to task pretty good.
 
JMBZ71 said:
I've always assumed that because pointing dogs provide close shooting, they're not bred for marking/retrieving skills. As several guys here have posted pics of their Brittany's retrieving, they must be an exception to this rule. I've never owned a pointing dog so I don't know a lot about them. Are my assumptions wrong? My next dog will most likely be a pointer, so I'm looking for a little education from some of you pointing dog gurus here.

Thanks in advance guys.
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EPs have great nose and are easy to teach fetch and are not as aggressive
to other dogs as GSPs. I have 4 EPs and 3 GSPs and they all retreive to hand. Three have been forced fetched trained mainly for trial reasons.
:cheers:
 
Dad had a 1/2 breed GSP/Irish Setter when I was a kid. I'd put that dog against any retriever in the country when it came to a wounded bird on the ground.
 
Yet another option...

There are pointing breeds (i.e. GSPs and brittanies) that typically point and often retrieve.. and there is, at least, one retrieving breed with specific lines that retrieve and also point (i.e. pointing labs).

When the GSP and Brittanies were first introduced to America, they were not initially well recieved by some pointing purests, because they were not "pure pointers", since they also had some instinct to retrieve. I guess they didn't like the idea of the dog having additional instincts for fear that may dilute the breeds primary instinct to point.

Today, the same is true for labs that point. Some lab/retrieving purests do not think that any lab should ever point, however, many other people have discovered pointing labs and really appreciate their verasility (cold weather tolerance for waterfowl retrieving, yet, pointing and retrieving of upland birds too).

To be clear, this post is not meant to start any debate on "this breed is better than that breed" or "this breed should only point and not retrieve" or "this breed should only retrieve and not point"..... I am just trying to share some info on another option, in case you were not aware of it.

Personally, if I were super wealthy, I would have one dog of every breed, so I could watch each and every one "do their thing". I just really love the dog work, regardless of the breed!

In reality, however, it is only practical for me to own just one dog, so I really need one that can support all of my hunting habits (mostly pheas, but a fair amount of duck and goose too)!

After a few years of watching an amazing pointing lab hunt, I decided that a dog like that would be great for my needs, so I bought Bear and, man, has my life changed! I have even missed the opening of elk bow season for 3 straight years because I just had to take Bear to a hunt test!

If you have any interest in seeing a PL in action, here is a video of Bear "doing his thing" on both a pheasant and goose hunt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY8ocsPNKts

You will note that, despite his natural instinct to point (he tri-pod pointed at 8 weeks old!), he still has a bit of talent in the retrieving arena as well.

Bear pointing wing at 8 weeks:
View attachment 1925

Bear pointing rooster at 3 years old:
View attachment 1926
 
Nice post to a revived thread.

Very nice dog you have in Bear. While there will always be the purists that point out if you want a pointing dog buy a pointing breed and if you want a flusher/retriever, likewise. I see nothing wrong with having what you have in Bear. If you double duty waterfowl hunting with upland hunting you have the best of both worlds so to speak, especially when it comes to cold water retrieves that may leave some pointing breeds lacking because of lack of coat.

I agree totally with the notion that all hunting dogs should retrieve whether naturally or trained as in "trained retrieve". IN fact I am in the belief that any good gun dog regardless of breed would benefit from force breaking or maybe a better term "trained retrieve". It just cleans up any sloppiness or the possibility the dog someday may just refuse a retrieve for whatever reason.

FWIW
 
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