Pointer or flusher debate

Who closes the distance faster, on a wild running rooster, to get it to flush?

  • Total voters
    9
BUL2023 said:
I run a track & train on my Lab, it was introduced to her at about 5 months old, and I bought it because she would get a stubborn streak and would just not come when called. I ordered a Garmin 300i with a T25 collar. When it showed up I charged everything up and we went for a walk, got back to the house, time to go in, she locks up about 50yds away and gives me the look of I’m not ready to go in, hit the tone button and called her again, she’s still looking at me as usual, hit the tone button, called her, no response, she got the first pinch, she jumped and looked at me, as if to say WTF was that, hit the tone button, called her, no response, cranked the juice up on the hand held and zapped her good, haven’t had a issue since… i now use it to keep her close, worked like a charm in Montana last fall, hit the tone button, she’d pop out of the fence row till we got closer and I’d send her back in,.
All bets are off if she sees the bird running
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So tell me this , when you turned up the juice and zapped the dog if it had ran away what would you have done then?

There are better ways to train.
 
Have you looked into a Pointing Lab? I absolutely love hunting over mine. They are remarkable dogs and can be as versatile as you want. A little research will point you in the direction of great breeders and exceptional litters. Get ahold of Andy at High Caliber and I know he’d be more than happy to visit with you. He is in SD and a great guy. Check out the American Pointing Labrador Association for more details on the dogs.

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BUL2023 said:
I run a track & train on my Lab, it was introduced to her at about 5 months old, and I bought it because she would get a stubborn streak and would just not come when called. I ordered a Garmin 300i with a T25 collar. When it showed up I charged everything up and we went for a walk, got back to the house, time to go in, she locks up about 50yds away and gives me the look of I’m not ready to go in, hit the tone button and called her again, she’s still looking at me as usual, hit the tone button, called her, no response, she got the first pinch, she jumped and looked at me, as if to say WTF was that, hit the tone button, called her, no response, cranked the juice up on the hand held and zapped her good, haven’t had a issue since… i now use it to keep her close, worked like a charm in Montana last fall, hit the tone button, she’d pop out of the fence row till we got closer and I’d send her back in,.
All bets are off if she sees the bird running
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I am not so sure I would be talking this up as training. You got lucky, she just as likely could have turned tail and ran away. Read up on collar conditioning. A fair comprehensive approach will accomplish much more.
 
After my experience this year with my shorthairs and crazy thick cattails, I would want a flusher if I strictly hunted pheasants in that kind of cover. Haven't seen many others mention this on here. Not good when your pointer is down in cover so thick you can't get to them. I get it that the cattails are maybe not as thick as they are this year in SD, but I found it extremely frustrating. There was a time or two my GPS said I was 15 to 20 feet from my dog on point and I could not physically get to them. What are you supposed to do? Now, I mostly quail hunt so I wouldn't trade my pointers but for strictly pheasants I think flushers would have the edge. Having said that, I've never hunted over a flusher.
 
BUL2023 said:
I run a track & train on my Lab, it was introduced to her at about 5 months old, and I bought it because she would get a stubborn streak and would just not come when called. I ordered a Garmin 300i with a T25 collar. When it showed up I charged everything up and we went for a walk, got back to the house, time to go in, she locks up about 50yds away and gives me the look of I’m not ready to go in, hit the tone button and called her again, she’s still looking at me as usual, hit the tone button, called her, no response, she got the first pinch, she jumped and looked at me, as if to say WTF was that, hit the tone button, called her, no response, cranked the juice up on the hand held and zapped her good, haven’t had a issue since… i now use it to keep her close, worked like a charm in Montana last fall, hit the tone button, she’d pop out of the fence row till we got closer and I’d send her back in,.
All bets are off if she sees the bird running
Click to expand...
I would not recommend using this method as intro to e collar
 
SDhunter86 said:
Hey-
I wanted to get few peoples opinion on this one... I have a British lab and we primary hunt wild birds on heavily hunted public land. He has been absolutely wonderful hunting /family dog. Great drive in the field with unbelievable retrieving skills and a flusher that is like a heat seeking missile. I love watching him chase up a wild running pheasant (I for now, in my younger years, can keep up to get a shot off). My only complaint of a British lab is that he sheds like a woolly mammoth and my wife is slightly allergic to it. He is getting older now and can only go for 1 day at a time now.
I'm looking into getting another dog, and I'm torn between a another British lab and a pudelpointer. I know I would overall be happy with either but the thing I worry about is hunting wild smart roosters is that they run like crazy to increase the distance before flushing. Yes in some conditions, they hold tight (heavy snow, high wind, crazy cold with high wind, very thick cover), but this is rare. I'd say most of the roosters I shoot are because my lab can close the distance of a wild running rooster very quickly. He turns into a deranged animal when he gets on a scent trail.
I'm just worried that a pudelpointer or any kind of pointer will point on the area where the bird WAS held up at, but in that very moment, that wild bird is in a full sprint away from us and then flushes out of range. I'm amazed on how these wild birds can sense us coming in. We come in stealth mode and they have like a 6th sense and they are running hard to get out of range and then flush.
Sorry, this has turned into a long post. I know I'm biased on flushers but I'm trying to be open minded. Your comments/thoughts are appreciated. Thanks!
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Kre said:
I don't understand this survey. A pointer isn't supposed to flush.
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Me too
 
I'm curious how people know when a bird is running? Are we calling all the following situations a running bird, even though most don't literally involve a running bird and none of them have a bird that is currently running?

- a bird that is walking in a straight line now
- a bird that was walking or running in a straight line at some point in the past and then stopped
- a bird that walked or ran in a straight line at some point in the past, then stopped, then walked or ran in a straight line, and repeated 1 or more times
 
I had the same question. I only had a few times this year where I knew for fact we were chasing a runner. Dog gets real birdy, then false points. Nose transitions from ground scent to air scent a few times, then creeps and/or runs with the scent for a ways. Rinse and repeat. This could go for 10 yards, but I've had it go for close to 200 twice this year. Eventually, that false point becomes a true point. I may be putting too much stock into my dog and those false points, but I think she does them partially so I can catch up while she confirms she's still going the correct way. Then when the bird gets trapped and the true point happens, you're in range. Also keep in mind that pointers don't always point exactly where the bird is, just like flushers don't run through the exact patch of grass the bird is in. Points can be off in direction, and the dog can be on top of the bird or 10 yards away or more, etc.

I've never had a flusher, but do you folks that run them feel you can keep up with the dog when it is on scent of a running bird? I have hunted with a flusher once, and he was excellent. We did have birds both busting wild and holding super tight on that short hunt, but its the only experience I have with a lab. I have a little bit of peace of mind knowing that my pointing dog SHOULD stop and hold the bird, not that it always happens though.
 
MNMEAD said:
I had the same question. I only had a few times this year where I knew for fact we were chasing a runner. Dog gets real birdy, then false points. Nose transitions from ground scent to air scent a few times, then creeps and/or runs with the scent for a ways. Rinse and repeat. This could go for 10 yards, but I've had it go for close to 200 twice this year. Eventually, that false point becomes a true point. I may be putting too much stock into my dog and those false points, but I think she does them partially so I can catch up while she confirms she's still going the correct way. Then when the bird gets trapped and the true point happens, you're in range. Also keep in mind that pointers don't always point exactly where the bird is, just like flushers don't run through the exact patch of grass the bird is in. Points can be off in direction, and the dog can be on top of the bird or 10 yards away or more, etc.

I've never had a flusher, but do you folks that run them feel you can keep up with the dog when it is on scent of a running bird? I have hunted with a flusher once, and he was excellent. We did have birds both busting wild and holding super tight on that short hunt, but its the only experience I have with a lab. I have a little bit of peace of mind knowing that my pointing dog SHOULD stop and hold the bird, not that it always happens though.
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Sometimes. Sometimes all bets are off. In my experience lots of times if dog is going crazy on a runner when that bird finally flushes it’s very fast and not really a great shot opportunity anyways

It’s fun to see the dog have drive and be laser focused but it’s not my favorite because I feel less control of the dog and that she’s hunting for her self and not for the hunter but it’s part of it obviously
 
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Point, creep, point, creep, point, creep.....pheasants running. Point, flush... quail holding.

Maybe not running but it is moving away from you and the dog. Maybe it finally holds or maybe it gets up 50 to 100 yards ahead of you. Had it happen a lot. That's what I mean when i think of a "running" pheasant.
 
Although possible, I am guessing most of us can't keep up with our dogs when they are sprinting. But I have had situations where I was able to cover enough distance to still be within shooting range when the bird flushes.

Here is some rough math on that. Let's be conservative and give the hunter a 10 mph run (I won't call that a sprint :) ), with gear on and in moderate cover. Let's give the dog a 30 mph sprint (some will be faster, some will be slower). This also assumes the hunter and dog start running at the exact same time and are right next to each other. In reality, the dog will probably be in front of the hunter, but could be off to the side, and the dog will probably start sprinting before the human decides to try to minimize the gap and starts running. This also doesn't cover the case for pointers, where they might slow down or stop and the hunter might catch up. It also doesn't cover where the bird has moved off to the side of the line, and there might be a little more time for the hunter to get closer before the dog adjusts to the lateral movement and gets close enough for the bird to flush.

Person's Distance, Dog's Distance, Distance Ahead
10 yards, 30 yards, 20 yards ahead
20 yards, 60 yards, 40 yards ahead
30 yards, 90 yards, 60 yards ahead
40 yards, 120 yards, 80 yards ahead
50 yards, 150 yards, 100 yards ahead
60 yards, 180 yards, 120 yards ahead

For every 1 yard for the hunter, the dog is covering 3, since it is running 3 times faster.

In the above situation, if you can cover 10 to 20 yards, by the time the bird flushes, you may have a reasonable chance of a shot. Maybe even to 30 yards, but since the dog probably had a head start, that isn't very likely.

The other way to look at that is if the bird (whether sitting still, walking, or running) is within 60 or so yards of the starting point when it flushes, you may have a chance of being close enough if you run when the dog starts sprinting in a straight line.

Running when the dog takes off isn't always pointless (no pun intended). This year, what was always on my mind was all the badger holes. You don't want to have a leg drop into one of those when you are running.
 
Springer22 said:
For the actual question on the poll, doesn’t matter if the dog is pointer or flusher. They can both close the distance same pace
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I'd agree, in the case of a truly running pheasant, if both dogs start running at the same time. In my experience, the flushers are going to speed up when they get on scent, and most pointers are going to slow down. Some people are going to train out flushing behavior in pointers, under all conditions (dog realizes the bird is running, dog hears the bird start to move or flush when on point, etc) or dog simply won't try to flush in those situations even without training. So for those people and dogs, there is no flush happening. For those of us who don't train out that behavior, on a bird that is literally running, the flusher will generally get there first, because they speed up immediately when they get on the straight line. Our pointers, who we allow to flush runners, will start out more cautious before they take off. It may be that the bird moved slower for a stretch before they started running. Or it may just be that the dog wants to be more sure that the bird has truly started running and isn't really close.

What the hunters behind flushers may miss out on is birds that are walking or have walked, and are now stopped, but further away than the hunter can keep within shooting distance from a sprinting dog. A pointer who won't flush or one who realizes the bird is/was walking rather than running, will give the hunter more time to get to the bird and make a shot.

If birds that have moved in a straight line is the most important situation in choosing the style, then it comes down to a gamble on whether the bird is truly running and you can stay close enough to the dog by the time the bird flushes in order to make a shot vs a bird who walked further away and that a pointer can get you closer to by being more cautious.

I've personally had more birds this season (which was an extreme season for true runners and straight line walkers where I hunt) that moved in a straight line, but were not trying to run into the next county, than I have had those that I believe were truly running. On the truly running birds, I can think of at least 2 cases where I was able to stay within 50 yards or so and made a long shot and got them. I can think of several cases where I couldn't keep up or didn't try. I had a ton of birds that I don't believe were true runners, and the dog simply tracked or stalked them in a straight line until we got to the bird (or didn't).
 
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Having had both flushers and pointers there is no doubt a flusher is going to close the distance faster on a running bird. A good pointing dog is going to slow down as it gets closer and the scent stronger. If your pointer is out running a flusher to the bird it's not doing it's job and is going to bump a lot of birds out of range.
 
Gatzby said:
I am not so sure I would be talking this up as training. You got lucky, she just as likely could have turned tail and ran away. Read up on collar conditioning. A fair comprehensive approach will accomplish much more.
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Really? I thought you just fried them till they came back. For me conditioning started on a lead. We
akp said:
After my experience this year with my shorthairs and crazy thick cattails, I would want a flusher if I strictly hunted pheasants in that kind of cover. Haven't seen many others mention this on here. Not good when your pointer is down in cover so thick you can't get to them. I get it that the cattails are maybe not as thick as they are this year in SD, but I found it extremely frustrating. There was a time or two my GPS said I was 15 to 20 feet from my dog on point and I could not physically get to them. What are you supposed to do? Now, I mostly quail hunt so I wouldn't trade my pointers but for strictly pheasants I think flushers would have the edge. Having said that, I've never hunted over a flusher.
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this was my experience. Growing up with pointers we hunted quail more than pheasant as they were more plentiful in eastern Kansas. When birds started to become more scarce and I started going north, I appreciated a great retriever especially one that would bust the cattails instead of me. I switched a couple years ago and there have been times I wish I hadn’t. I love my dog and she is still learning but I have questioned my decision. It is all in what type of hunting you do
 
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