Dakotazeb
Well-known member
Keep it in Europe!
Pointer or flusher debate
- Thread starter SDhunter86
- Start date
Weimdogman
Well-known member
Well as you may have already read sometimes it is advantageous to command the dog to flush.Keep it in Europe!
What do you pointer guys do when your dog gets a bird up and is out of gun range? After hunting wild SD pheasants my whole life, I know this is a thing. They don't always sit and wait to be pointed and for someone to catch up and flush them. Asking out of curiosity, as I've always hunted over pointing labs that we have always kept within gun range.
Miforester
Well-known member
Short answer is move on to the next bird, it is part of the pursuit. Part of a successful point is the bird(s) holding till the hunter flushes the bird. Alot of time the dog will be on point and the birds will walk away from the point, typically if the bird doesn't flush you release the dog to hopefully repoint. In the grouse woods this happens alot that birds are walking away from the point. If one of my dogs have been one point for a period of time, I will walk a straight line in the direction they are looking anticipating the bird has moved away from the initial point. If nothing flushes within 15 to 20 yards I start back in a zig zag pattern. My dad and I joked that a rooster will tell the hen to sit tight for the point and he will sneak away. I get more frustrated when the dogs bump birds out of gun range than when they point and the birds don't hold.
I'm less of a purist when it comes to my pointer regarding me not always walking up and flushing them. Nothing wrong with purists either. That's just not how I do it. But to answer your question, the pointers try to stay far enough away from the birds to reduce wild flushes out of range of the hunter.
Part of late season birds is they will often flush before you get close enough to flush them yourself, as you have probably experienced with your pointing lab. My pointer stops on a point a greater distance away from the bird than my close working pointing lab did. So if she is out of shooting range, and she smells a bird, she will usually stop and wait for me to get to her before she continues tracking or stalking. She is then moving slowly enough for us to stay together, especially if she is stalking. If she senses the bird has started running (not walking), then all bets are off.
Having said that, you are always going to have situations where a pointer comes from the upwind direction or crosswind direction and can't smell the bird until they are closer to the bird than they would like to be. If the birds are jumpy, then that can cause a wild flush out of range.
How far a pointer ranges can vary based on the breeding lines, the individual dog, the training, the hunter, and the cover. There are pointers that hunt in front of people riding horses in some regions. You could also have some dogs in the ruffed grouse woods that range for miles. All of the pointers I've pheasant hunted with, who belong to other people, are in the 200 yards or less range. In open cover (not cattails or thickets), my dog generally stays under 100 yards. But there are times she goes over 100 yards if she is getting some scent. There are times where I see her go from, let's say 100 yards to 160 yards, on the gps receiver, in just a few seconds, and I know she is on a true runner. No way for me to even see the flush usually, in those cases. Those are fairly rare though. There are also times where she goes on point up to 100 or more yards away, and I go to her, and we either end up with a flush from that point, or she tracks/stalks closer to the bird for the flush. More often, when I see her tracking, I'll hustle up a bit, to minimize the distance between us, to reduce the risk.
When we are hunting the outside edges of cattails, where it isn't about her using her ranging to cover more area, she generally stays within 60 yards, and I generally try to stay closer to her as well. When she is hunting inside the edge of cattails, if I am outside, I have an easier time keeping up with her and she doesn't have to worry as much about waiting up for me. I keep in vocal contact with her so she knows where I am. If we are both in the cattails, and she is tracking a late season, no snow, bird, I have a harder time keeping up to her, and some of those on the opposing team do cheat and get up out of range. When hunting a close ranging springer, in the past, in the cattails, however, the opposing team would employ the same foul plays. Cheaters gonna cheat.
There are many variables involved, so it's difficult to speak in generalities.
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I watch the bird fly away, same as I do when I am pushing cover and birds get up 100 yards away from me or the dog. It is part of the game, a great learning experience for the dog and overall enjoyable.
If my dog is 150 yards out and flushes a bird between my 11:00 and 1:00, I might have been able to shoot that bird if I held my dog to a 25 yard range. If my dog flushes a bird at 150 yards between my 2:00 and 10:00, I never would of known the bird was there without letting the dog range so a bumped bird has done me no harm. However if it points the bird anywhere on the clock at any range, I have a chance of shooting it.
All of us have different preferences and as long as we are staying legal, safe and are respecting one another I am all for other folks doing it their way.
Edit for grammar
If I strictly hunted pheasants in cattails, I probably would want a flusher too. When I am in your situation I will normally start by throwing rocks stuff in a way I know I won't hit the dog. If that fails I have been known to discharge a round and shoot the bird with my second or third shot.
In eastern washington we do not have dense populations of birds so I think I get more benefits from a larger running dog. Hunting huns in short grass prairie, there is also a real advantage to having a dog that will lock up on point 400 yards out from you. I am fortunate that between forest grouse, huns, chukar, pheasants, and quail I can upland hunt every weekend for over 4 months of the year. If I lived on the east coast and took two pheasant trips a year, there is no way I would put up with my high strung crackheads, and would have a lab or golden retriever.
GetTothePoint
Well-known member
It's an issue for sure. I have to really try and keep them reeled in when in thick cover. I have definitely had birds flush out of range just because I couldn't get there in time. I've noticed the state I hunt mainly now has thick enough cover that birds seem to run more, which leads to some great multiple point chases. But it also makes it difficult to decide when to let a dog move up and keep on the bird or make them wait for you to catch up. I've been a pointer man through and through but I'm thinking real hard of adding a flusher, just for the cattails and thick/tall crp. I've had some great long chases in Kansas over the years but it seems like to me we have a lot of those in SD. I love it but I do think I've cost us some birds that I've had to hold my dogs up too much on and they simply out run us/me.
Miforester
Well-known member
Regarding cattails, it is a choice you have to make and somewhat commit too. If frozen and ice is thick enough to hold my weight then I will get into the cattails as well, easier to keep track of the dog(s) and get to a point. If standing water I try to keep the dogs on the edge but have had to venture into the cattails for points on small islands. Often hens but have bagged a few roosters, I prefer not to go wading, not sure if i had flusher I would had shots. If dry I get into the cattails and walk them as best I can if trails are already thru them.