Pheasant Slaughter near Liberal

[V-John]

And lets get down to it, the real reason we all hunt is to kill something. Now I love to watch my dogs work and that is my favorite part but I want to harvest/kill some birds too. If all you really care about is watching your dog then go get some quail and a call back pen, then you can do it every night and save a lot of money in the process.

No, I disagree with this.
I hunted this Sunday, saw six coveys of quail. I shot once and missed and I consider it a success. We all know that wild birds are totally different from pen raised birds, and I can guarantee you that using a callback pen with bought quail ain't going to be anything like the real thing. (wild birds) My dogs worked the birds well and found birds. That's all I care about.
Wild birds teach a young dog so much and keep an older dog honest. A dog has to learn where to go and wild birds teach em this.
Of course, the circumstances are different for a pointing dog owner and a flushing dog owner. They just are different.
Considering I trial my dogs, well, these wild birds are worth their weight in gold.
I don't care about shooting birds. I've shot plenty. I'll shoot more. But that's not even a priority.
For me it REALLY is about the dog work.

In reaction to the large groups, not my thing. I don't go to a friend's place to hunt specifically because there is a large group. A large group to me is like 5.
But I won't hold it against those that do it. I've done it. Not my cup of tea, but who am I to judge?
I'm glad you all are seeing that many birds. That's great news.

 

[westksbowhunter]

I had one of my students tell me today that his group killed 178 in 2 days. I had no reply. This is not hunting.

You might as well just turn out a couple of hundred rhoad island red chickens and start blazing. Surrounding a field where a bird has not chance of escaping is not hunting. If this is what we are teaching kids, the future for conservation is in trouble.

When I was in high school, my neighbor was C.A. Johnson. He wrote the book "Here Whoa Dead Bird". He was the original breeder and trainer of CH Grouse Ridge John. He taught me that a bird that was not pointed by your dog had the right to live. He said he never shot a bird his dog did not point. Of course we are talking quail hunting.

 

[Radar]

I wish you kansas guys wouldnt hate on other bird hunters. WE had 14 hunters and shot 85 birds this weekend. I will say we didnt get 1/10 of 1% of the birds in the area we hunted.

 

[westksbowhunter]

The guys I am referring to are residents of our county. If killing hundreds of birds is what turns you on, go to a preserve and do a European shoot. I heard talk of guys not even looking for cripples.

 

[V-John]

I had one of my students tell me today that his group killed 178 in 2 days. I had no reply. This is not hunting.

You might as well just turn out a couple of hundred rhoad island red chickens and start blazing. Surrounding a field where a bird has not chance of escaping is not hunting. If this is what we are teaching kids, the future for conservation is in trouble.

When I was in high school, my neighbor was C.A. Johnson. He wrote the book "Here Whoa Dead Bird". He was the original breeder and trainer of CH Grouse Ridge John. He taught me that a bird that was not pointed by your dog had the right to live. He said he never shot a bird his dog did not point. Of course we are talking quail hunting.

Nice post. Totally agree with this.
It was not that bird's day to die.

 

[sas]

I don't think anyone was attacking the guy who stopped for a hunt and had to join an army. I certainly wasn't. I was attacking the concept of 50 guys walking through a field shooting whatever jumps up. I have watched it time and again and I have YET to see one of these marches stop while someone when behind 75 yds. and spent a little time looking for a cripple. And I will promise you that the ratio of hens that are dropped compared to small groups is big time.

And I don't believe it is rational to compare 50 guys abreast to 25 groups of 2 etc. And yes, if they are hunting legally they are entitled to 4 just the same as anyone else. No argument.

If you belong to a group that takes the same care to retrieve all downed birds and shoot roosters only then you are the exception. I just haven't seen it. That is not to pass judgment on anybody as we all make mistakes. The object should be to keep them to a minimum.

I believe when you sign on to one of those mass hunts you know whats going to happen. It may be legal but that doesn't make it right. I'm glad there are still sportsmen who can tell the difference.

 

[westksbowhunter]

C.A. was one of the greatest dog trainers that ever lived. I will tell you a little story. C.A. had some outstanding dogs. He wanted to breed to Dr Flanagans bloodlines at Grouse Ridge Kennels in New York. He did not have the stud fee money. His dog Johnson's Skyhigh Duke (aka Grouse Ridge John) had outstanding talent and he knew it. He gave the dog to Flanagan for a stud fee realizing the dogs talent and that Flanagan would be able to campaign the dog. The rest is history if you know english setters.

He used to train and trial with and against my grandad back in 50's. They taught me everything I know about hunting. C.A. wanted to introduce the Lewellen line into his american bred setters. He did an A.I with semen from england. He got 2 pups. He kept on and gave me the other. Scott Miller, who is the best gundog trainer in the country no question, trained my dog. He told me she was the best gundog in his kennel. This was back in 1989. She died at 13. I will never own another dog that good. I will never forget the day she pointed 13 coveys of quail. And pheasants, she was awesome.

 

[kscountryboy11]

Also a group of 50+, over a hundred birds shot. A little over two birds per hunter, not that great of a ratio. Split them up into ten groups of five and I bet they kill double the amount of birds and take up five times the amount of ground.

So what if someone comes on here and posts about a group of fifty friends that get together to hunt. They say they split into ten groups and go out seperatly. They then say that between the ten groups they killed 140 birds. Now would that still be disgusting or since they were in smaller groups would it be better perceived as hunting and not just shooting?

i have to agree with you on this one. its really not that big of deal. i do not hunt in big groups like that because i dont find it as enjoyable. but on another note, im almost betting that 35 or so of those guys only hunt that opening weekend, its not like they really killed a ton of birds, no if they did that every weekend thats a different story. just my thoughts. but u still wont find me doing that

 

[KsHusker]

I dont agree with the guys on here attacking the original poster. Ive pretty much given up on the pdj board due to the higher than mighty attitudes most of the posters have. Unless you're a regular most posters wont answer your question or will ignore what you have to say entirely.


If someone wants to hunt in a large group and he gets enjoyment out of that then Im all for it. Ive been a part of some drive hunts and though not really my cup of tea I dont see anything wrong with it. Most of the people doing the drive hunts hunt one weekend or two all year, probably dont have dogs and if they do have dogs they likely arent any good so the drive hunt is the only way they'll see birds. Yearly line hunts are based in traditions that go back many years for those groups. As long as everyone is not getting crazy and being ethical then great! Let the line march.

Most of us with good dogs could probably get our limits every day on pheasants if hunting in the right habitat and right conditions...Does that make us slob hunters when you'd calculate the # of birds we could kill all season? Good dogs just give us the same leg up a line drive does in my opinion, only difference is they hunt once or twice a year and we're out there all year primarily because we enjoy the dog work.

I dont buy the argument that you arent hunting to harvest anything, unless you have another person with you whos the designated shooter. Harvesting a bird is part of the reward for the dog. If you truly dont want to harvest an animal or have anyone with your group harvest an animal, stay out of the field and leave the birds undisturbed for another hunter and go to a field trial and ride around on your horse and pretend you know how to hunt.

Welcome to the board and please dont let the all the negative nancy's scare you away from posting in the future.

The more roosters that are harvested the less competition there is for scarce winter food for the hens. Heres some direct figures from the PF website. Ive heard the statistics bantered about and what I remember hearing is that you could wipe out 90% of the viable roosters and be perfectly fine for next year. In fact thats very similar to whats on Pheasants Forever website.

When the #'s start going down its not due to hunting. Its due to habitat.

How does hunting affect roosters in a pheasant population?
Survival of roosters in hunted populations is normally very low, but that is not a concern. In fact, hunters could harvest 93% of pre-hunt rooster numbers without harming the population. However, such a high rate of harvest is very unusual if not impossible. The normal range is from 45-65%. Adding an average crippling loss of 10% means that 55-75% of roosters are often removed from the fall population. In states where significant harvest occurs (Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas and South Dakota), rooster kill averages around 70%. Elsewhere, particularly in western states, fewer hunters and less interest usually mean a reduced harvest rate.

How is reproduction affected by harvest of roosters and how do we know that the number taken is not detrimental?
A Michigan study in the early 1950's indicated that a single rooster in a game-farm environment was able to mate with and successfully fertilize 49 hens. Other studies also indicate that the number of roosters available to fertilize hens during the spring is not of great concern. Many biologists feel that an ideal male:female spring sex ratio would be about 1:10, indicating both an optimal harvest and adequate males for reproduction. Spring sex ratios in most states with significant pheasant harvests average about one cock for every 2-4 hens.

 

[henhenROOSTER!!!]

Dang, sure are a lot of highly-opinionated fellers on this thread! Personally, I say each to his own - there is plenty of room for all.

There was a day when I would have really enjoyed & considered myself lucky to have been part of a hunt like this! It's not my personal style now - but hey, not everyone can afford or has the time for a dog & some are not privileged to spend time in pheasant country more than once a year.

Actually, some of the biggest "party hunters" of all are local farmers/landowners & friends just takin a little once-a-yr time out from work to get together to have a good ol time (& they don't always have the same luxurious amounts of time to do it the way some of us choose to do)....

Personally, I take 25-30 roosters all by myself on the limited time I have to get out even on a bad year...So, a large dogless party taking 50-100 birds once or twice per year vs a lot of single hunters & small groups each taking a fairly sizeable collection of birds throughout the season, is either one worse or better - do we have to throw stones? Different strokes for different folks...

 

[Toad]

I can't think of 49 other people I would trust with a gun. Guess that's why I only hunt with one or two people 99% of the time.

No judgements here. To each their own. I'm glad you had a good experience in Kansas.

I guess I never really thought about what happens to the crippled birds in a big drive like that. I see big drives all the time and just assume that they are all ethical people who would search for crippled birds like anybody else. Next time I see a big drive I'll take my dog back through there after they are done and see for myself.

 

[kansasbrittany]

I can't think of 49 other people I would trust with a gun. Guess that's why I only hunt with one or two people 99% of the time.

No judgements here. To each their own. I'm glad you had a good experience in Kansas.

I guess I never really thought about what happens to the crippled birds in a big drive like that. I see big drives all the time and just assume that they are all ethical people who would search for crippled birds like anybody else. Next time I see a big drive I'll take my dog back through there after they are done and see for myself.

And you'll find some dead/crippled birds if you do. I was thinking the same thing. My dogs would enjoy that very much.

 

[texasbirdhunter]

I have mixed feelings about this type of hunting. I too hunted with a big group of hunters this weekend and I did enjoy myself but it's a once in a year thing, it is a tradition where I hunt to do a big party hunt. I hunt with a bunch of local people of Gove county for the last couple of years and it is fun. Most of the guys that hunted in that party will not hunt anymore this season. We had kids and old guys who could only block and that is the only way they would be able to hunt. My dogs got a lot of work retreving. I like the fact that I get to meet and get to know local landowners in that area so when I go back they know me by my first name I like being invited into there community and treated like a local person instead of a out of state outlaw hunter.

And for you guys that think that it hurts the bird population your wrong there were more bird this year then last year and there are plenty left. Pretators kill alot more birds then hunters every year.

I hope my dad who is old and can only walk short distances will be able to go next year. He has not hunted pheasant in years because of his health. As for me I will hunt the rest of the season grinding out birds the traditional way but I was glad that a lot of people got to hunt that would have never been able to any other way. So for all you purest runing your mouth on this forum LIVE AND LET LIVE.

 

[labsnslabs]

I agree with you guys about the cripples and sometimes they are not looked for in ernest. And so you guys know, the last time I hunted in a group larger then five was three years ago in Nebraska. Funny thing about that is they lost me because I stopped to look for a cripple. Only reason I found it, I didnt have my own dogs back then, was an older gsp got lost from her owner and got behind the group. Well here she showed up finds the dead bird then went about her way. After that hunt I said I'm not doing it again, even though I had fun and shot my limit.
As far as hen shooting goes, I dont think thats the big groups fault. That is the guys that dont hunt but once a years fault. Those guys are going to shoot at a hen, usually not on purpose, whether they are with twenty or two guys. Its just up to us, actual bird hunters, to explain the ways to tell the difference.
I have actually rather enjoyed this thread, and its nice to see everybody chime in and explain there feelings. I have a bad habit of playing devils advocate, a habit I cant seem to break.

 

[V-John]

I dont buy the argument that you arent hunting to harvest anything, unless you have another person with you whos the designated shooter. Harvesting a bird is part of the reward for the dog. If you truly dont want to harvest an animal or have anyone with your group harvest an animal, stay out of the field and leave the birds undisturbed for another hunter and go to a field trial and ride around on your horse and pretend you know how to hunt.

I disagree again.
What's wrong with putting dogs on the ground and letting them work wild birds? Why should I stay out of the field and leave the birds undisturbed? I don't understand this mentality. I've just gone into the field with a camera before and really enjoyed myself. I've also gone out and shot a limit as well. Nobody said anything about someone else in the group shooting birds, I just said that I didn't have to shot birds to enjoy the hunt.
This opener, I shot three times. Saw a lot birds, and got good dog work. Why am I obligated to shoot birds to have a good day?
As far as a reward for the dog, yes, it is sometimes. So you shoot a bird for the dog.
Sounds like you've been to a lot of field trials so I'm sure you know what you are talking about when you say that they "pretend to hunt".
I can tell you that most field trialers were/are hunters first.
The original topic on this thread was discussing hunting in large groups. As said previously, it's not a lot of our cups of tea. I don't think anyone is judging the OP for hunting in this manner. I know I have before (not quite in a group of fifty) but, it's not something that I want to do.
They don't stop to look for wounded birds though? Ugh.

 

[Shadow]

And you'll find some dead/crippled birds if you do. I was thinking the same thing. My dogs would enjoy that very much.

last opener I waited till the large group of 40 some walked this field- nice to see they didn't shoot towards the house or farm machinery-
couple hours later took two of mine- 6 hens and 3 roosters 4 quail- no I didn't keep the hens

next morning waited again- took the other two out after- 4 hens and 2 roosters,
this group was denied hunting all this season

quite fun to actually run dogs where groups have been
I've limited out a few times without shooting

but- I have seen a couple times where a group of 5-8 walked a field- turned arround and went back thru it- they had dogs- I asked them how they did- they smiled-

 

[KSGuy]

I too like to go in with my dog after the big group has been through. Nothing better than having the big group standing around their trucks watching while I shoot a limit over solid points

One year in SD I was starting into a big public field bordered by picked corn when a large group pulled up and starting hunting right behind me. Their dogs were running wild and flushing birds ahead of me! I went over to the edge and waited for the group. After 200-300 yards I had my limit over nice points and told the couple of guys near me they could shoot whatever my dog pointed the rest of the way. They nastily told me they could get their own birds so I turned back and headed to my truck. Cleaned my limit, had a beer and didn't hear a shot while the group went all the way to the end and back

 

[doubletap]

I hunted with a group of about 40 on Saturday morning, in the same part of the state, with hunters from Texas, Kansas, Oklahoma and Colorado. We had around a dozen dogs working the line most of the morning. We typically were walking quarter by mile sections and very spread out. Without the dogs, what rooster we were pushing could have easily ran right through out line.
We wait everytime a bird goes down. I didn't personally see any hens shot over the weekend - I saw some shot at by mistake, but a few of the older blockers (they don't see or hear to well ). We didn't harvest massive numbers of birds and had a great time hanging out together. On more than one occassion went back to the same fields Sunday or Monday morning with much smaller numbers and continued to find birds.
Not every large group you see out there is full of unethical rookie shooters, nor are they always intent on wiping the rooster from the planet.

 

[Bilbo Baggins]

To me this can be described in one word "disgusting". I have parked and watched these battalions attack a field, shoulder to shoulder like the Redcoats attacking the Colonists. They swoop down on a grass patch like it was full of rodents and they had to be eliminated or we would all perish. It is an all out war on pheasants. Much as I have tried I cannot see what satisfaction they gain from hunting this way. More correctlyl, it should called pheasant shooting.

The real sad part is I have never seen them stop and wait while someone goes behind them and searches for cripples. And the ones that seem to fall dead and don't get retrieved on purpose give me the feeling they were hens.

They have the right to gang up like this is they want but maybe they could just go out in the barnyard and shoot some chickens with the same satisfaction. Or maybe stay at home with a nice video game and shoot all they want.

Too bad, they are missing the real joy of the chase.

I am with you on this one Boss. That type of pheasant shooting would never interest me, in fact, I would hang up the shotguns. I saw plenty of large armies this past weekend doing exactly what was described in the original post.

 

[beaglebob1]

I hunted with a group of about 40 on Saturday morning, in the same part of the state, with hunters from Texas, Kansas, Oklahoma and Colorado. We had around a dozen dogs working the line most of the morning. We typically were walking quarter by mile sections and very spread out. Without the dogs, what rooster we were pushing could have easily ran right through out line.
We wait everytime a bird goes down. I didn't personally see any hens shot over the weekend - I saw some shot at by mistake, but a few of the older blockers (they don't see or hear to well ). We didn't harvest massive numbers of birds and had a great time hanging out together. On more than one occassion went back to the same fields Sunday or Monday morning with much smaller numbers and continued to find birds.
Not every large group you see out there is full of unethical rookie shooters, nor are they always intent on wiping the rooster from the planet.

Sounds like a fun time like in the OLD DAYS:cheers: