Lab Replacement

r_man

New member
I've been hunting over labs for my entire life and am coming up on replacing my 10 year old soon. He's been the greatest upland lab I've ever seen, even decided he was a pointer, but that being said, he'd get outhunted by any decent shorthair. I do about 90% upland hunting and am considering a wirehair. From a lab-owner's perspective I'd appreciate some input on the plusses and minuses. How well do they retrieve, how close do they tend to work, etc. I haven't been around many wirehairs to learn the faults and bonuses. I've considered shorthairs, but hunting around barbed wire has had them looking like a trauma ward, while my lab didn't have a scratch, and longhairs work and look great, but cockleburrs are an enemy that I don't want to contend with.
I'm sure that this will begin another war of dog-purists, but any objective input would be appreciated.
 
I gonna pop some popcorn and watch this blow up.

A buddy of mine has a wire hair. He does spend more time on grooming than I do. As an upland dog she is a very nice. Retrieves reliably and hunts at what I would consider close to medium. All in all a really nice dog. If I were to go the pointy direction wire hairs would be on the short list with Brits and or another GSP.
 
My WPG is less maintenance than both my lab and britt were, along with way less shedding. On average the wirehair breeds will be great retrievers and close to medium range, at least in my experiences.
 
I don't think you can go wrong with any breed. It is just a matter of taste, functionality, and what the family wants to live with. I have owned GSP's, Labs, and ESS. I have hunted with friends and wire hairs. Each has their own style. Each their own ups and downs. A forum should be good for advice, but often is the opposite in matters such as this. I would just go seek out a few good knowledgeable breeders of the dogs your tire kicking over, and watch what the dogs do. See what trips your trigger, and go with one trying to be a purist to the breed. And one that will back up the pup with health concerns of the breed. They all have them. Good luck
 
I've been hunting over labs for my entire life and am coming up on replacing my 10 year old soon. He's been the greatest upland lab I've ever seen, even decided he was a pointer, but that being said, he'd get outhunted by any decent shorthair. I do about 90% upland hunting and am considering a wirehair. From a lab-owner's perspective I'd appreciate some input on the plusses and minuses. How well do they retrieve, how close do they tend to work, etc. I haven't been around many wirehairs to learn the faults and bonuses. I've considered shorthairs, but hunting around barbed wire has had them looking like a trauma ward, while my lab didn't have a scratch, and longhairs work and look great, but cockleburrs are an enemy that I don't want to contend with.
I'm sure that this will begin another war of dog-purists, but any objective input would be appreciated.

What do you really want in a dog? One that will hunt closer or one that will range out? Of course you will find variations in any breed. Will the dog be in the house or a kennel dog? Most well bred hunting breeds should retrieve fine for you. If not, a little force fetch training will cure the problem.
 
I own a Drahthaar, from whence the GWP came. The original so they say.
Was a GSP guy prior, and still love GSPs.
I found GSPs to be a bit more plug n play, bullet proof even for idiot trainers and owners.
Wires are smarter and are thinkers, and thats the rub, they are drivey, but you have to outsmart em, the poodle in them from way back gives em their smarts. They are very sensitive and very attached to their owners. They are more clownish as well.

Mine is very food driven and bi lingual. Smart as most 5 yr old kids.
I can command her with my eyes. Does whistle and hand signals as well.
Retrieves as well or better than most Labs, UKC HRC titled, had a judge tell me of 38 Labs running in 1 test, mine was the best dog there. A very nice compliment. I dont own an e collar either.

DDs are better at cripples than Labs but will not outline a Lab over large distances. Just get them to the scent cone and your bird/duck will be brought back. They dont like repetitive training, so mix it up, keep it fun and light.
Pretend your training a Golden Retriever and youll be fine. They can learn angles, all hand casts, whistle stops etc if you waterfowl but if you train like a Lab, youll ruin your DD, they are not a Lab. Think Golden Retriever, little to no pressure.

The DD/GWP Coat gives them an edge in cattails and thorns, but slows em down in the heat, mine melts above 60F. Ideally, Id own one of both, or a slick DD. But you can hunt waterfowl in the cold and they will tolerate similar temps to a Lab.

DDs were circus dogs way back in Europe and here (Ringling Bros), if that tells you how smart they are, smarter than most owners, You can literally train them to do about anything as far as game or food is concerned, track and alert you to the find by baying, or track and alert you by bringing back a bringsel in their mouth and lead you back TO the find/deer.

8503385025_18fca95fbd.jpg

DD baying


8577918886_35e8953266.jpg

DD on badger.
My GSPs would chase cats and coons, my DDs kills them. Or anything else on 4 legs they can.

DD is a better tracker, uses nose alot more on ground scent which is a plus.
Hunts at a good pace, close to medium and opens up in country to 200 or so yards which is more than enough for me.

Probably a bit more patient with kids, my GSPs were indifferent to kids or would growl, my DD lets my kids pull her ears and would never think to bite. But the DD/Weim is a better and more aggressive watchdog.
Basicaly, You wont get in my truck or house without getting bit and I prefer it that way. I like a protective dog.
But fine when introduced.

Coat is practically no shed, just strip comb every 3-4 months to comb out dead. Secret to a good coat is a pup with out the much feathering or furnishing, almost slick like. Its a perfect wash and wear coat. Or youll be grooming and after hunt combing, which I dont prefer.
This is the quintessential DD coat below that is wash and wear, and perfect for the field and water, It is what breeders strive for, or should in addition to other attributes.
castor.jpg


Suffice to say they are a challenge because of their versatility and trainability, but probably worth it if you put in the time TO Train, but if you just want a bird dog, then you just expose, most just comes naturally. They like people are not kennel dogs, GSPs are better in that regard.
Youve got lots of choices just do your homework and be fair to the dog, if you dont hunt 20 days per year, get another breed, they need a job and want to work. And be sure to socialize IF you want a friendly dog, If you dont and want more protective, then dont worry about it. I would socialize with other FRIENDLY dogs, but supervise. You dont want a pup attacked and have long term issues. Im partial to the DD because I demand tight QC but Im sure there are good GWPs as well.
http://www.vdd-gna.org/

Good luck.
 
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Will they imprint and viciously protect a house/vehicle like a heeler?
I read alot about chasing fur. Are you constantly fighting chasing rabbits, deer, and elk while hunting birds?
 
Will they imprint and viciously protect a house/vehicle like a heeler?
I read alot about chasing fur. Are you constantly fighting chasing rabbits, deer, and elk while hunting birds?

Some will, some wont, depends on the line, the dog, the socialization.
Weims, Chessies and DDs can all be Very Protective of their family and their familys stuff. So can a few Labs Ive seen.
But there are many exceptions to the rule.

Imprint? Mine will.
I worked her just like my German Shepherds on hidden bite sleeves to protect my vehicle, she passed with flying colors. Others say their dogs are way too friendly and wouldnt protect anything, im sure that is true as well. They are every bit as tenacious as a heeler, good ones anyway and thats why I like Weims, DDs and Chessies.

If we dont want to hunt rabbits, I just tell her to hunt birds.
Yes, they are that smart.
Same with deer which has a different command in 'find the buck' and a special tracking collar which she knows what thats for.
 
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I guess with the replies that I've seen I'm looking for
1. a dog that will be good with my two small boys (ie:not biting them or their friends or neighbors)
2. A dog that can point, then release on command to flush, then retrieve the bird back to me about 20 days per year
3. A hide that will hold up to barbed wire
4. Fur that won't hold cocklburs
I will be talking to breeders, I'm just trying to get some background on the right questions to ask and directions to lean.
Thanks for the input to this point and any more down the line
 
No hide holds up to barb wire, the dog is a childs pet/companion for 330 days a year, kids wrestle with neighbors kids even get in scraps with them sometimes.

I wouldn't get a sharp German dog for that reason.

And FWIW I am mostly a German dog guy ( GSPs).

Get another lab or a maybe even a pointing lab and if it doesn't point you still have a useful dog. Most labs are good kids dogs very few are protective or mean and IMO that's a good thing with kids.
 
#3 - that dog doesn't exist. Cuts a scrapes are just past of having a hunting dog.

#4 - The coats on about every breed of longer haired dog or wire haired dog can vary greatly. There are some wires that are almost slick and others that are fur balls. There are setters, small munsterlanders, brittanys, etc. that have coats that are quite long and/or furry and others with coats that are short and close to the body. I have two Brittanys. One is a fur ball that needs trimming several times a year and the other has a short flat coat that never needs trimming and collects very few burrs. I almost bought a SM a few years ago until I saw some of the breeders dogs. They were way too furry for me. Didn't even look nice. On the other hand my buddy's SM has a very nice coat. Moral of the story: You really need to check out each dog individually.
 
No hide holds up to barb wire,
Of all coats, wire haired coats are the most abrasive proof, small barb wire can be included in this.


the dog is a childs pet/companion for 330 days a year, kids wrestle with neighbors kids even get in scraps with them sometimes.
No children should be left unsupervised with any dog unless they are really trustworthy and old enough.


I wouldn't get a sharp German dog for that reason.
Thats interesting as Labs are near the top in the country IN dog bites. Weims are one of the safest dogs to own and they are protective as hell of their immediate family, and I cant find anything on GWP/DDs biting..alot less than Labs thats for sure.

And FWIW I am mostly a German dog guy ( GSPs).
Then u should know better.
German dogs are extremly loyal and their popularity still has them way below labs in dog bites.

This is Omaha for example-Labs lead the city in bites
http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogb...ly-the-media-will-ask-the-right-question.html

Meanwhile, in 2010, total dog bites rose to 913. If 'pit bulls' accounted for 42 of those bites, that means 871 bites were recorded by non-pit bull type dogs -- this is a 26% increase in non-pit bull bites since the year the law was passed.

So while Langan and NHS have been running around for the past 2 years focusing on enforcing the city's breed-specific ordinance (against breeds that accounted for 14% of the total dog bites in the city), all of the other types of dogs in the city have been involved in 26% more dog bites (nearly 200 total bites). And the largest biting breeds are not targeted breeds, and not small dogs.
They're Labs and Shepherds which are both bigger breeds than any of the 'pit bull' type dogs and in spite of Labs' reputation for being cuddly dogs, it's also worth noting that Langan says that they "encounter a lot of serious bites from Labs".
Labs and Shepherds were both in the top 3 of level 4 and level 5 bites for the 4 years leading up to the passing of the city's breed-specific law.'


Get another lab or a maybe even a pointing lab and if it doesn't point you still have a useful dog. Most labs are good kids dogs very few are protective or mean and IMO that's a good thing with kids.
See above, most is not correct as Labs almost lead the country in dog bites.
Breeders are not doing their job.
I really think a good GSP or DD would run circles around a Lab in almost all upland hunting situations. But I was a Lab guy and still like them.
 
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#3 - that dog doesn't exist. Cuts a scrapes are just past of having a hunting dog.

#4 - The coats on about every breed of longer haired dog or wire haired dog can vary greatly. There are some wires that are almost slick and others that are fur balls. There are setters, small munsterlanders, brittanys, etc. that have coats that are quite long and/or furry and others with coats that are short and close to the body. I have two Brittanys. One is a fur ball that needs trimming several times a year and the other has a short flat coat that never needs trimming and collects very few burrs. I almost bought a SM a few years ago until I saw some of the breeders dogs. They were way too furry for me. Didn't even look nice. On the other hand my buddy's SM has a very nice coat. Moral of the story: You really need to check out each dog individually.

3. Ive never had a serious cut or scrape on my wirehaired dog.
I do vest most times, but aside from leg scratched, I dont recall one in 10 years. And I guided hunts most of the last 10 years with the same dog, and there is barb wire. You have to see a good wire coat to appreciate one.


4. Partly true BUT....
One can strip his wire coated dog and / or cut the feathering (Feet, head, ears) and the coat should lay fine and not be a bur magnet.
Some PAM spray on the dog that is well cut and one will have little issues.
 
Statistics can always be twisted

Of the 2,060 bites, Labrador retrievers made up the biggest percentage on the bite list.

Labs accounted for 13.3 percent of the reported bites; pit bulls, 8.4 percent; German shepherds, 7.8 percent; Rottweilers, 3.9 percent; and Chows, 3.5 percent.

That does not mean that Labrador retrievers bite more often than other breeds, the experts said. To try to determine which breed bites the most, there would have to be a dog census, accumulating total numbers of each breed, and then a breakdown to compare breeds. Those numbers are not available.

Read more: Dog-bite survey finds few canines that attack - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/ci_11796291#ixzz2nAkk05MM
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse
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I've trained labs and shorthairs for 40 years , I've personally had three shorthairs in about 35 personal dogs that did bite ( rawhide clown by coonass) top field trial lines not back yard dogs, never had a lab in maybe 20 personal o and a hundred I've trained for other people that would.

But as you correctly stated about labs, irresponsible breeders are most of the problem, the breed quality has been diminished IMO.

What's that mean? Not much just my personal observation, which is what I base my opinions on not something I read on the internet.

I never said a kid should be allowed around a dog unsupervised and have recommended just the opposite on many other forums.

My friends Wire has been down twice this year due to barb wire cuts, barb wire cuts cows and my horses which have a lot thicker hides than any dog.

I love both breeds but I stand by my opinion based on my lifes experience.
 
Statistics can always be twisted




I've trained labs and shorthairs for 40 years , I've personally had three shorthairs in about 35 personal dogs that did bite ( rawhide clown by coonass) top field trial lines not back yard dogs, never had a lab in maybe 20 personal o and a hundred I've trained for other people that would.

But as you correctly stated about labs, irresponsible breeders are most of the problem, the breed quality has been diminished IMO.

What's that mean? Not much just my personal observation, which is what I base my opinions on not something I read on the internet.

I never said a kid should be allowed around a dog unsupervised and have recommended just the opposite on many other forums.

My friends Wire has been down twice this year due to barb wire cuts, barb wire cuts cows and my horses which have a lot thicker hides than any dog.

I love both breeds but I stand by my opinion based on my lifes experience.

Stats regionally or nationally, do not lie or are not twisted.
Labs account for the majority OF dog bites, but not fatal dog bites. FACT.
But a bite is a bite in most cases.
They hurt and they can be serious. Labs have killed people with fatal attacks as well, Youre thinking myopic in your experience but I assure you the USA is a big country and there lots of Lab bites.


No surprise on the field trial dog biting, they are not exempt and in fact winning ribbons has the breeders prioritize temperment / cooperation near the bottom.

You said yourself that Wire coats vary, a good one is almost scratch proof, to a large extent.
Cattail, blackberry bush and even wire does next to nothing on my dog and a good wire coat.

Stand where you want but facts are facts.
 
You asked so here you go...


Family dog is not harmless, new study says
By Janice Lloyd, USA TODAY
11/10/2010 1:34 PM


As much as we write about the wonderful attributes of dogs and cats, we are sometimes reminded they're not always angels.
This isn't really news to me, but Fido needs to be supervised around young children, according to a new study.

The study, done by Vikram Durairaj of the University of Colorado School of Medicine, found that dogs usually target a child's face and eyes and most often it's a breed considered "good" with children, like a Labrador Retriever.
"People tend to think the family dog is harmless, but it's not," said Durairaj, associate professor of Ophthalmology and Otolaryngology-Head and Neck Surgery. "We have seen facial fractures around the eye, eye lids torn off, injury to the tear drainage system and the eyeball itself."

The study says the likelihood of a child getting bitten in their lifetime is around 50 % with 80 % of those bites involving the head and neck. If a dog bites once, it's likely to bite again with the second attack often more brutal than the first.
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, about 4.5 million people are bitten by dogs each year and 885,000 require medical attention. The total cost is estimated at up to $250 million.

The study looked at 537 children treated for facial dog bites at The Children's Hospital on the University of Colorado's Anschutz Medical Campus between 2003 and 2008. Durairaj found that 68 % of bites occurred in children 5-years-old or younger with the highest incidence in 3-year-olds.

The dogs were not breeds usually associated with attacks. Mixed breeds were responsible for 23 % of bites followed by Labrador retrievers (13.7 %), Rottweilers (4.9 % ), German shepherds (4.4 %) and Golden Retrievers (3 %). The study was done in the Denver area where Pit bulls are banned.
He says the first time a dog bites it should be removed from the home: "The onus is on parents to recognize aggressive breeds as well as behaviors and never allow their young children to be left unsupervised around any dog."



Notice LABS were 14% of all Dog bites. Near the top of the breed list.
 
Any dog can bite do you understand statistical analysis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_popular_dog_breeds

there are way way way way more labs as pets than most other breeds you would have to break the dogs down by a numerical census to determine IF that number is meaningful

that's not been done

Beagles, Like Labs are also tremendously popular, but they are near dead last when it comes TO dog bites.
So much for your statistical analysis...

Popularity, genetic deficiencies and bad breeding have all contributed/ caused a change to the worse, In Labs.
 
Oh no now I did it. There are no absolutes. There are labs that bite, but the vast majority tend to be like the 10 or so that I've owned that can be trained to not even bark, while the majority of heelers will take someones arm off if they try to get in the pickup without being invited. I've had to take a lab to the vet for barbed wire, but that was once or twice, while I've seen a couple of shorthairs that looked like Freddy Kreuger had his way with them. There are no absolutes and no one breed is the end all be all, I was hoping for some tendencies of a breed.
 
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