Kansas Trespassing Fee for Private Land

Lot of good comments and thoughts on this thread. I hear all the talk about the way things used to be and can’t believe I didn’t know about bird hunting up until 6 years ago!!

Since that time, I’ve been blessed to start and work with 3 dogs from pup to where they are right now, raised three others that just didn’t have it IMO. All of their bird work took place on public land and I’d like to say I gave them all ample opportunity. Sure we do what we can in the back yard but I don’t have access to birds. 2 of them hit the jack pot right off the bat, got them in birds and made a dog quick. My GSP female that is not quite 2 just didn’t get into good positions last year (not the best year we ever had and what good opportunities you do have it’s hard to burn on pup training) made it a point to hit it hard and put her in birds this year, got creative and went outside the box going to different areas, I had my doubts of her over the summer, shame on me, my goodness her development has been unbelievable this fall/winter. She’ll never have another owner feed her.

The fun in it for me is the challenge to put them in the right position and it is AWESOME to watch their natural ability take over. Do have a question, I have always been timid to put my dogs on a preserve, I think there is something to be said for dogs learning how to get it done in a wild condition. Am I right in thinking that? I probably base it off my early days of working with rabbit dogs (beagles for 12 years), never had a pup make a dog that I trained in a starting pen. The good ones learned it all in the wild. The kicker for me is I know bird dogs are sooo much smarter than beagles, absolutely zero comparison. Can a fella make a bird dog at a preserve based on their smarts/ability or is there significant risk associated with that? I’ve wondered just haven’t pulled that trigger and tried it.

To each their own, I respect it all, I just love the sport and hearing all of the different perspectives. Thanks in advance for any comments that you guys might have.
 
Wolfchief as I stated earlier, I have nothing against out of state hunters... my problem is your idea of leasing and outfitters... I’m glad you can make your three trips and be guaranteed your birds by your outfitter.. those spots your guaranteed access to by your outfitter at one point were probably hunted by many locals and others whether private or or past public, which every year I see many good public lands being leased out by outfitters due to WIHA not being able to compete with the money offers. Throwing money at it for your guarantee, just takes away from everyone else.
 
I will throw this out, for whatever it's worth.....I said earlier that there is little public land in the Midwest. That's in comparison with the western states. Nevada is something like 87% public land.Most of it is federal.

There is however, somewhat of a STATE public land base in some of the Midwest states. I know ND has a pretty decent amount. I'm not sure about Kansas. It would take a considerable grass roots effort, but why not try and develop a majority of that STATE land base into quality habitat. Much of that land base is full 640 acre school sections that gets leased out for grazing, with little or no regard to habitat and wildlife. You wouldn't have to boot the rancher off...use fencing and rotational grazing to benefit the land. Fence off riparian zones and put decent winter shelter in, and presto...you get wildlife. Alaska swamp collies could round up some greenies to help out with the costs...not entirely joking...it's amazing the effort that birders put in to go view birdlife..every bit as dedicated as many hunters..

This should be viewed as a multi generational effort that would take decades, not years to bring to fruition...but hey, you have to start somewhere..If you are a native to one of those Midwest states and you want to have something to hand off to your kids/grandkids...this is as good a place to start as any...
I think it's pretty frigging obvious that long term deals using private lands for conservation are both cyclic and fickle.
Some, or even most of that money being put into private hands for hunting opportunity would be better invested in publicly owned STATE lands that will still be available 50 years from now...
IF I was a native to one of these Midwest states, I think that is a direction I would want to see things go.....I would also want to see a fee to use these developed resources and proper management principals....one being to limit group sizes to a reasonable size......can a worms there...lol...
 
Wolfchief said:
You didn't answer my question about how YOU would feel if you had to come to my country and do what you're asking me to do---and as far as logic, all I see from some of you guys is a knee jerk negative reaction to anyone from out of state competing with you for hunting access.
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Sorry, didn't realize I'd overlooked your question. Yes - no doubt at all, if I was to visit your country and drive by many thousands of acres of WIHA or equivalent, I'd stop short of the preserve in favor of a less structured, and less guaranteed, outcome. But I have absolutely no objection to your preference - have at it, and enjoy.
 
Haretrigger said:
I will throw this out, for whatever it's worth.....I said earlier that there is little public land in the Midwest. That's in comparison with the western states. Nevada is something like 87% public land.Most of it is federal.

There is however, somewhat of a STATE public land base in some of the Midwest states. I know ND has a pretty decent amount. I'm not sure about Kansas. It would take a considerable grass roots effort, but why not try and develop a majority of that STATE land base into quality habitat. Much of that land base is full 640 acre school sections that gets leased out for grazing, with little or no regard to habitat and wildlife. You wouldn't have to boot the rancher off...use fencing and rotational grazing to benefit the land. Fence off riparian zones and put decent winter shelter in, and presto...you get wildlife. Alaska swamp collies could round up some greenies to help out with the costs...not entirely joking...it's amazing the effort that birders put in to go view birdlife..every bit as dedicated as many hunters..

This should be viewed as a multi generational effort that would take decades, not years to bring to fruition...but hey, you have to start somewhere..If you are a native to one of those Midwest states and you want to have something to hand off to your kids/grandkids...this is as good a place to start as any...
I think it's pretty frigging obvious that long term deals using private lands for conservation are both cyclic and fickle.
Some, or even most of that money being put into private hands for hunting opportunity would be better invested in publicly owned STATE lands that will still be available 50 years from now...
IF I was a native to one of these Midwest states, I think that is a direction I would want to see things go.....I would also want to see a fee to use these developed resources and proper management principals....one being to limit group sizes to a reasonable size......can a worms there...lol...
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Wouldn't that be that kind of like carrying coals to Newcastle?

Kansans are blessed with far more bird hunting opportunities than the vast majority of Americans - who'd still have to travel extremely long distances and spend wads of cash just to arrive at the new (midwestern) state lands that you suggest. Why not make hunting accessible to the majority, and much more inviting to prospective new generations of hunters, by doing as you suggest not in the land of (relative) plenty - but within an hour or so of major metropolitan areas in states (largely east/west coast) with essentially zero opportunities?
 
Relative = diminishing
Hunting=larger land tracts
Urban real estate=unaffordable
State land=already owned

It was an idea/concept....nothing more, nothing less. It could and should include available public land base near urban areas,what little there is...
It's probably the only real hope for the future, imo...

If you use onx, take a look at washington state.....almost all washington state land is open to hunting by the public.some of it actually has habitat and provides a modicum of opportunity.
I lived in WA as a kid in the 60's...pheasants everywhere 500,000 harvested every year. Now, under 100k, one third of those are planted.
I lived in Idaho in the late 60's. Remember seeing snow covered canals beat down bank to bank with pheasant tracks..Now, concrete ditching, clean farming and under 100k a year harvested.Over 500k in the 60's... I'm pretty sure they have gone to releasing birds as well.
Started hunting ND in the late 90's. Unposted land , you could hunt it and opportunity was everywhere....now, hard not to see a "no tresspassing" sign on every fence.

If you think your "relative" opportunities will continue to exist as they are now, me thinks you are in for a rude awakening..

Thats really what this thread is about...A guy comes to a public forum with a lot of public land hunters, trying to figure out what/where his best opportunity is to buy some hunting time on private land....I think he's smart to do it if he has the cash...which I think it's obvious he does....and so do 1000's of other dudes. They want to get out and enjoy some quality hunting...they could give a rats ass how, or if that affects your "no money paid" hunting approach.
The point of my post was that if you don't want to compete with those willing to pay, then you probably should be advocating for quality management of what public lands you own.
South Dakota does a pretty good job in that department, in my limited experience there. Much brighter future than the other midwest states...

Honestly, I don't have a dog in this fight....getting older..don't have kids...
Glad I had my day in the sun...hope to have a few more. Would like to think a young person now could experience what some of us have had the luck/privilege to experience..Thats not likely to happen with the current programs..."times, they are a changin"..

p.s.. newcastle= beer
 
Been watching this thread. I've hunted KS for upland from about 72-05. After that it's been all SD. I've hunted ducks, deer, coyotes, etc in KS those same years.

I'd agree with the folks that said the hype about big KS deer has had a negative effect on available land to hunt. It was about 95 that they started allowing non-resident deer hunting IIRC. Even before that though KS holders of a buck tag were taking non-residents out to coyote hunt and if a big buck went down, well who's to say the resident actually pulled the trigger? Big money was changing hands that way back in the late 80s. It's only gotten worse since then. All the BIG BUCK TV sportsman shows and magazines promote this and there are people willing to pay for that big rack brag rights. So, capitalism it is. If you want it and you have the money to buy it...someone will sell it to you. Thus the deer leases. It's not going to stop. I do also agree the bow hunt season in KS is pretty well past ridiculously long but that's a KDWP money issue too.

As for preserve hunts, I'm pretty sure most would rather shoot true wild birds. Of course, a LOT of the places that claim they have only wild birds are supplementing with pen raised. If they host dozens of people per week on a few square miles and limits are the rule not the exception...they're likely supplementing. If you can shoot over the limit, they're definitely supplementing. Most of their clients probably don't know to check toes or nares and accept the line that coyotes probably got the tail feathers on that one.

Still, I think preserves have their place, even in decent pheasant country. I've used them to start/train my dogs. They have longer seasons that open earlier and no limits. It takes birds to make a bird dog. The more bird contacts the better. The preserves provide a somewhat controlled environment to work on things with your dog. I think it's easier than finding & buying a couple of pheasant yourself and finding a place to train the dog and shoot the birds. There are a couple preserves near me that will let you do your own thing and train a dog rather than just shoot and get out fast so the next customer can get in.

Also, preserves provide a somewhat controlled environment to start new shooters, especially the youngsters. The young ones are definitely going to see birds and get shots. To beginners, that's the most important thing. It's much easier to make those Hunter Safety lessons become real when you are afield with the dog and just you, your son and your grandson. So I'll use preserves for that too.

When the dogs and grandkids are trained and ready though...we're going to SD. I thought I would hunt KS more this year but I had a 10 day SD trip at the opener and got invited back up for a 5 day just after Christmas. With all the other ...stuff... that happens to older hunters, that's about all I could fit in up to now.

Of course, YMMV. Do what you like.
 
Birdman2 said:
Im glad there are some that understand where I am with bird hunting. I would prefer to see a few birds each day with an opportunity to shoot a few. I do appreciate your suggestions also. I posted up a thread here a few years ago similar to this one. The majority said similar things as in this thread. Good news though. I had a very generous land owner invite me to hunt his place for a reasonable fee. For several years now I have hunted his place for parts of a couple days. His place has birds and it make my trip more enjoyable. To boot he is a very nice guy. Merry Christm
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Chestle said:
Been watching this thread. I've hunted KS for upland from about 72-05. After that it's been all SD. I've hunted ducks, deer, coyotes, etc in KS those same years.

I'd agree with the folks that said the hype about big KS deer has had a negative effect on available land to hunt. It was about 95 that they started allowing non-resident deer hunting IIRC. Even before that though KS holders of a buck tag were taking non-residents out to coyote hunt and if a big buck went down, well who's to say the resident actually pulled the trigger? Big money was changing hands that way back in the late 80s. It's only gotten worse since then. All the BIG BUCK TV sportsman shows and magazines promote this and there are people willing to pay for that big rack brag rights. So, capitalism it is. If you want it and you have the money to buy it...someone will sell it to you. Thus the deer leases. It's not going to stop. I do also agree the bow hunt season in KS is pretty well past ridiculously long but that's a KDWP money issue too.

As for preserve hunts, I'm pretty sure most would rather shoot true wild birds. Of course, a LOT of the places that claim they have only wild birds are supplementing with pen raised. If they host dozens of people per week on a few square miles and limits are the rule not the exception...they're likely supplementing. If you can shoot over the limit, they're definitely supplementing. Most of their clients probably don't know to check toes or nares and accept the line that coyotes probably got the tail feathers on that one.

Still, I think preserves have their place, even in decent pheasant country. I've used them to start/train my dogs. They have longer seasons that open earlier and no limits. It takes birds to make a bird dog. The more bird contacts the better. The preserves provide a somewhat controlled environment to work on things with your dog. I think it's easier than finding & buying a couple of pheasant yourself and finding a place to train the dog and shoot the birds. There are a couple preserves near me that will let you do your own thing and train a dog rather than just shoot and get out fast so the next customer can get in.

Also, preserves provide a somewhat controlled environment to start new shooters, especially the youngsters. The young ones are definitely going to see birds and get shots. To beginners, that's the most important thing. It's much easier to make those Hunter Safety lessons become real when you are afield with the dog and just you, your son and your grandson. So I'll use preserves for that too.

When the dogs and grandkids are trained and ready though...we're going to SD. I thought I would hunt KS more this year but I had a 10 day SD trip at the opener and got invited back up for a 5 day just after Christmas. With all the other ...stuff... that happens to older hunters, that's about all I could fit in up to now.

Of course, YMMV. Do what you like.
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The bow season has been about the same since 1965, when Kansas had its first deer season. It ran from Oct. 1st til gun season then re-opened after the conclusion of gun season and then closed Dec. 31st. That really hasn't changed. What changed are all the special season that everyone requests and convinces the legislature that it will bring in the money. Sept is full of specials seasons, Jan. is a special season, but bowhunting has relatively been unchanged. What did change was now you can use your bow or any other weapon during the specials seasons providing you wear orange and the inclusion of crossguns (Thanks Randy from Ohio, owner of Ten Point Crossbows who used his Dad as a prostitute to get his inclusion to sell crossbows).
 
westksbowhunter said:
The bow season has been about the same since 1965, when Kansas had its first deer season. It ran from Oct. 1st til gun season then re-opened after the conclusion of gun season and then closed Dec. 31st. That really hasn't changed. What changed are all the special season that everyone requests and convinces the legislature that it will bring in the money. Sept is full of specials seasons, Jan. is a special season, but bowhunting has relatively been unchanged. What did change was now you can use your bow or any other weapon during the specials seasons providing you wear orange and the inclusion of crossguns (Thanks Randy from Ohio, owner of Ten Point Crossbows who used his Dad as a prostitute to get his inclusion to sell crossbows).
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I know you obviously like to bow hunt - but with the influx of out of staters it has turned into a free for all on all of it Archery mainly IMO.

Archery season shouldnt be as long it is NOW -- before I was fine with it as it was mainly in state residents using bow season. Cross bows -- I dunno - if I try archery again that is what I'll use as Ive messed around with a compound before and tried it for 2 years but it's just not my thing.

I would like to see a severe belt clamping on deer seasons in general and since Archery is the longest it needs messed with too - Non residents should not be allowed to hunt at any time during any of the seasons - they should have shortened times at least when they can come - IE divide the archery season up into segments and everyone including residents should be relegated to a unit-- if the compromise would be to let residents hunt the full season I'm fine with that. I'd also fully support having a x-bow only season if that's what someone wants to use and have it be only 7 or 10 days like rifle provided the rest of archery is shortened or divided up into segments.

The any season any weapon nonsense, the special seasons you speak of etc all need to go. Still have fingers crossed most white tails die in some sort of plague and scare off all the deer antler obsessed hordes. A disaster like that is about the only way to get rid of the slobs that obsess over their manhood inches and inches of antler.
 
KsHusker said:
I know you obviously like to bow hunt - but with the influx of out of staters it has turned into a free for all on all of it Archery mainly IMO.

Archery season shouldnt be as long it is NOW -- before I was fine with it as it was mainly in state residents using bow season. Cross bows -- I dunno - if I try archery again that is what I'll use as Ive messed around with a compound before and tried it for 2 years but it's just not my thing.

I would like to see a severe belt clamping on deer seasons in general and since Archery is the longest it needs messed with too - Non residents should not be allowed to hunt at any time during any of the seasons - they should have shortened times at least when they can come - IE divide the archery season up into segments and everyone including residents should be relegated to a unit-- if the compromise would be to let residents hunt the full season I'm fine with that. I'd also fully support having a x-bow only season if that's what someone wants to use and have it be only 7 or 10 days like rifle provided the rest of archery is shortened or divided up into segments.

The any season any weapon nonsense, the special seasons you speak of etc all need to go. Still have fingers crossed most white tails die in some sort of plague and scare off all the deer antler obsessed hordes. A disaster like that is about the only way to get rid of the slobs that obsess over their manhood inches and inches of antler.
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Oh I agree, but archery season is only 2 weeks longer than it used to be. But it should be cut back to Oct. 1st. Crossbows should have never been included into the archery season. I get the impression that you and Chestle think it has been extended greatly, which it hasn't. What has changed is that it now includes crossbows and several special gun seasons.
 
No, I don't think it was greatly extended. I think, as you point out, the technology has radically changed (crossbows) making it a lot easier. Additionally, although I can't find historical stats, I think there may be a lot more archery tags being sold (Crossbows, special seasons, etc) and that would put pressure on land availability (leasing) as well.

Might be more firearm tags too, with the same result on land availability. Still scouting around for historical license sales for KS. Some states have it, I have not found it for KS yet.

<EDIT> I did find 2020 Non-Resident Deer Stats overall. There were 24240 Non-Res applications for 22003 available permits. There were no leftover permits in any of the 18 areas. It doesn't differentiate or mention type of permit (Firearm, etc.) </EDIT>
 
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Not more resident archery tags but not resident tags. Kansas archers are on the decline, drastically. 15,200 archers hunted in Kansas during the 1984 archery season, only 5570 archery tags sold last year. Then you have the any season tag. It wasn't that long ago that KS residents had a draw system for firearms season. Here is everything you need to know, we are dominated by NR hunting over 49,000 tags last year. https://ksoutdoors.com/Services/Res...rveys/Deer/2018-19-Kansas-Deer-Harvest-Report
 
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westksbowhunter said:
Not more resident archery tags but not resident tags. Kansas archers are on the decline, drastically. 15,200 archers hunted in Kansas during the 1984 archery season, only 5570 archery tags sold last year. Then you have the any season tag. It wasn't that long ago that KS residents had a draw system for firearms season. Here is everything you need to know, we are dominated by NR hunting over 49,000 tags last year. https://ksoutdoors.com/Services/Res...rveys/Deer/2018-19-Kansas-Deer-Harvest-Report
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Yikes! That is an attention getting stat. Good discourse, and facts are helpful.

Definitely sounds like non-resident deer tags are a major revenue stream for KsWildLife and Parks. Any insights into how the deer revenue, and especially non-resident fees, is spent? To the extent that it goes to fund Department salaries and perqs, I can see where this might be sort of a self-licking ice cream cone. If it goes to directly toward funding WIHA hunting access - then that would benefit all, including the bird hunters among us. If we can't tell which is the case because income sources are not publicly liked to where, functionally, the money gets spent - that might suggest the process would benefit from more transparency and perhaps more effective oversight - yes?
 
KSnative said:
Yikes! That is an attention getting stat. Good discourse, and facts are helpful.

Definitely sounds like non-resident deer tags are a major revenue stream for KsWildLife and Parks. Any insights into how the deer revenue, and especially non-resident fees, is spent? To the extent that it goes to fund Department salaries and perqs, I can see where this might be sort of a self-licking ice cream cone. If it goes to directly toward funding WIHA hunting access - then that would benefit all, including the bird hunters among us. If we can't tell which is the case because income sources are not publicly liked to where, functionally, the money gets spent - that might suggest the process would benefit from more transparency and perhaps more effective oversight - yes?
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I haven't went down the rabbit hole all the way - but I believe our wonderful (said sarcastically) former governor Sam Brownback cut all government entities budgets down to nothing - KDWPT among other depts was forced to make cuts, get creative with revenue etc -- The easy button is through deer permits - but as I've pointed out - for now we have a scarce commodity and that is upland birds -- they F'd up taking the low hanging fruit - it's a no brainer the boon for the state when you take into account lodging, gas, food etc being spent by hunters willing to travel from all over to bird hunt would be a bigger boon to the economy than deer.


Also as far as WIHA from my understanding I believe most if not all of the money for WIHA comes from the feds by way of Pitman Robertson funds (75% per an article I found - and 25% by the state - what backs the states money or where it comes from I dont know --- I do know it has been beaten to death here and other places - if the state charged a special access fee for the WIHA access it would be shooting itself in the foot as there is something in how the funding is set up that if the state tries to charge money for the WIHA access it will get less fed funds)

Here's the article - about half way down starts diving into some stats.

www.thekansan.com

Walk in hunting has grown in Kansas, limited in Harvey County

As landowners began restricting access to their land for hunters, the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks started accessing federal funds to lease
www.thekansan.com
 
westksbowhunter said:
Not more resident archery tags but not resident tags. Kansas archers are on the decline, drastically. 15,200 archers hunted in Kansas during the 1984 archery season, only 5570 archery tags sold last year. Then you have the any season tag. It wasn't that long ago that KS residents had a draw system for firearms season. Here is everything you need to know, we are dominated by NR hunting over 49,000 tags last year. https://ksoutdoors.com/Services/Res...rveys/Deer/2018-19-Kansas-Deer-Harvest-Report
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If you count being able to archery hunt early in Sept and rifle season I'd say it's closer to a month longer -- I just think having one season that long is absurd. I love to upland hunt like everyone here and do not think we need an upland season from the middle of Sept to middle or end of January depending on how long your doe season is. I guess most people dont buy doe archery tags so we can just take that out of the equation -- but 2 1/2 mos for upland birds - vs over 3 1/2 mos to pursue antlers for archery.

By my count at least in 2020 - Archery season is 27 days longer than it used to be when it opened up Oct 1 and shut down during rifle season -- (opened Sept 14 - 17 days before Oct 1st and then still open during rifle which is 10 days long)

So I do guess I think it's quite a bit longer now than it was. We both agree the lack of any deer management is not a recipe for success and screws up other hunting access such as upland.
 
Central---I'm not going to continue this pointless duel of words with you...where I hunt, NOBODY guarantees my birds! I shoot them, or miss them, myself---period, end of story. Chestie said it--it takes BIRDS to make a bird dog. I made it clear I would rather shoot wild ones, but no one can shoot what's NOT THERE. I agree with what most have said here; we each do what we feel we must to train our dogs and get outdoors to have a memorable season. This has been a decent season for me, and I've lived vicariously through many of the posts where guys on this site have had a dozen+ rooster days. More power to you! And here's a New Years' toast to great dogs, great hunts, and better days ahead.
 
KsHusker said:
I haven't went down the rabbit hole all the way - but I believe our wonderful (said sarcastically) former governor Sam Brownback cut all government entities budgets down to nothing - KDWPT among other depts was forced to make cuts, get creative with revenue etc -- The easy button is through deer permits - but as I've pointed out - for now we have a scarce commodity and that is upland birds -- they F'd up taking the low hanging fruit - it's a no brainer the boon for the state when you take into account lodging, gas, food etc being spent by hunters willing to travel from all over to bird hunt would be a bigger boon to the economy than deer.


Also as far as WIHA from my understanding I believe most if not all of the money for WIHA comes from the feds by way of Pitman Robertson funds (75% per an article I found - and 25% by the state - what backs the states money or where it comes from I dont know --- I do know it has been beaten to death here and other places - if the state charged a special access fee for the WIHA access it would be shooting itself in the foot as there is something in how the funding is set up that if the state tries to charge money for the WIHA access it will get less fed funds)

Here's the article - about half way down starts diving into some stats.

www.thekansan.com

Walk in hunting has grown in Kansas, limited in Harvey County

As landowners began restricting access to their land for hunters, the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks started accessing federal funds to lease
www.thekansan.com
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So, we are to understand that the problem is that some guy a long time ago reduced State taxes , which forced the KS Department of Wildlife to exponentially expand deer seasons and non-resident license sales in order to support a predominantly Federally funded program (WIHA)? And that there is now no means of cure or remediation?
 
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