Kansas Trespassing Fee for Private Land

[westksbowhunter]

No, not kidding. I had in mind, specifically, the rifle season (which is short) but it sounds like my bright idea is a dud in any event. A swing and a miss on my part.

Hard for me to get my head around the phenomenon that I do not doubt that you accurately describe. Personally- can't imagine getting more enjoyment from sticking a couple of deer (one shot and done) than, say, multiple days of exciting chances at as many as 4 pheasants and 8 quail. And not having to sit still to do it. Just out of curiosity, how much does a lease to ensure success cost, on average, per head? Might be a better deal just to buy a large rack on line - and just about as much fun (to me, anyway). AND no need to stick your arm up a deer's business all the way to your elbow. Different strokes .........

Actually gun season is pretty long, when you consider we now have crossguns in the bow season. There are also the early youth season for guns, muzzle loader season, then the 2 day antlerless days in Oct where you can use a gun. Then another antlerless gun season in January. You can figure starting around $20 per acre for a lease. Although some places go much higher. That's why there is such a decline in WIHA. Losing all the CRP won't help for next year either.

 

[KSnative]

I've stated my opinion on pay hunting many times.Thumbs down!!

I think its pretty much unanimous - none of us likes this trend. However, just just for clarity, if it was pay to hunt or none of all - which would you opt for? I pay for dove and goose shoots which, I guess, makes me part of the problem - but I wouldn't have gotten much of either for the past several decades without shooing the moths out my wallet. Now that I'm retired, that's all changed - but my past experience does make me much more sympathetic to those with fewer good choices than you and I are fortunate enough to have. The more people are able to enjoy our sport, the longer we'll all have it in some form - I think.

 

[Wolfchief]

I won't change any minds with this reply, and it's pointless really to continue this fruitless argument; maybe I'd feel the same way KS does if I were in his shoes. I find it ironic though that just yesterday I get an e-mail from South Dakota Fish & Game, inviting me to come out for a late season hunt....we "bad boys" who buy hunting once or twice a year aren't going to deplete the rooster population, especially if we follow the law, respect the resource, and use common sense. Our out of state "dirty money" creates a lot of income for the host states and counties--otherwise, why would they be enticing us to come? Frankly, anyone who has a problem with that, tough. If we want to pay for recreation we can't get at home, whether you like it or not, that is our right and it is the law. And for those knocking on doors, using maps , plat books, etc. to find new places to hunt---I do that too--in my home area. That's why I have places to hunt around here. I'm not against that at all. It's just not practical when I don't have boots on the ground to do this scouting 900 miles away, year-round. If you haven't considered the economic multiplier effect that all the out of state money brings to your Fish & Game coffers, maybe you should. More than enough said.

 

[Birdman2]

Amen brother.

 

[centralkshunter]

I’m so glad your out of state money is here to save us rural Americans wolfchief! Also before this pay and play and leasing money going to KDWPT there must have been no birds anywhere. Since that is what I always read is saving it all.
I don’t know how we made it so many years without. If you’d read all the posts this has nothing to do with out of state hunters or birds. It’s instead about people leasing up land and controlling access from everyone else. Maybe you’d have a different outlook if it happened to you in your home area 900 miles away. No more access to any ground unless you are willing to pay $1000s or have a $10000 to $15000 + a lease. Majority of the people on this forum can’t afford that. So in your money rules everything mindset, the local blue collar ppl working normal jobs, not a president of a bank as you stated earlier, are SOL? Due to me and my wife being State of KS employees and not clearing 6 figures, me and my son shouldn’t have the opportunity or pleasure that my dad and grandpa raised me up doing every fall. The deer hunting I was raised doing is already gone, I’ve been priced out of that. Im debating and fighting for the upland hunting now which is under attack.
As for the states email. Your right it’s commercializing. It’s all about the money to them, which is the root to this entire problem.
Some hobbies and pleasures are about economics, cruises, country clubs, etc... the heritage of hunting and the outdoors shouldn’t be one in my opinion.

 

[KSnative]

Actually gun season is pretty long, when you consider we now have crossguns in the bow season. There are also the early youth season for guns, muzzle loader season, then the 2 day antlerless days in Oct where you can use a gun. Then another antlerless gun season in January. You can figure starting around $20 per acre for a lease. Although some places go much higher. That's why there is such a decline in WIHA. Losing all the CRP won't help for next year either.

I’m so glad your out of state money is here to save us rural Americans wolfchief! Also before this pay and play and leasing money going to KDWPT there must have been no birds anywhere. Since that is what I always read is saving it all.
I don’t know how we made it so many years without. If you’d read all the posts this has nothing to do with out of state hunters or birds. It’s instead about people leasing up land and controlling access from everyone else. Maybe you’d have a different outlook if it happened to you in your home area 900 miles away. No more access to any ground unless you are willing to pay $1000s or have a $10000 to $15000 + a lease. Majority of the people on this forum can’t afford that. So in your money rules everything mindset, the local blue collar ppl working normal jobs, not a president of a bank as you stated earlier, are SOL? Due to me and my wife being State of KS employees and not clearing 6 figures, me and my son shouldn’t have the opportunity or pleasure that my dad and grandpa raised me up doing every fall. The deer hunting I was raised doing is already gone, I’ve been priced out of that. Im debating and fighting for the upland hunting now which is under attack.
As for the states email. Your right it’s commercializing. It’s all about the money to them, which is the root to this entire problem.
Some hobbies and pleasures are about economics, cruises, country clubs, etc... the heritage of hunting and the outdoors shouldn’t be one in my opinion.

Not trying to prolong the agony here, but FWIW - I see this string as a discussion among people who have more in common than not, vice an argument. It has value to the extent it helps us better understand where the other guy may be coming from.

I believe I read some time ago that considerably over half of the KWLP license revenue comes from out of state people who pay the higher non-resident license fees. The result of which is, I think, more WIHP ground than there would otherwise be for everyone, residents and non-. Whether that is good or bad, I suppose, depends on your perspective but to me (call me a hybrid, born and sure hope to die in KS, but a sojourner elsewhere most of my life) it seems like the WIHP is the best thing going for more and more of us who don't have good property, or living relatives or friends that do. And that applies to more and more full-time KS residents too, I think. I'll take overworked and sometimes so-so WHIP over what most of our fellow countrymen have - easily. Again- not arguing, wishing all great success where ever and however you are able to find it.

 

[KsHusker]

No, not kidding. I had in mind, specifically, the rifle season (which is short) but it sounds like my bright idea is a dud in any event. A swing and a miss on my part.

Hard for me to get my head around the phenomenon that I do not doubt that you accurately describe. Personally- can't imagine getting more enjoyment from sticking a couple of deer (one shot and done) than, say, multiple days of exciting chances at as many as 4 pheasants and 8 quail. And not having to sit still to do it. Just out of curiosity, how much does a lease to ensure success cost, on average, per head? Might be a better deal just to buy a large rack on line - and just about as much fun (to me, anyway). AND no need to stick your arm up a deer's business all the way to your elbow. Different strokes .........

West KS Bowhunter hit the nail on the head - I've railed on this very subject for a long time -

I'd say there are 3 main culprits for upland declines

1. - farming/ag practices -- IE Clean farming -
   (I think the ag industry may have finally taken this too far -- I've been starting to see more "mainstream" articles on the plight of the Monarch butterfly -- this is the opportunity of a lifetime ie CRISIS that has been needed by wildlife preservation groups to get policy changes enacted to battle against the poison companies such as Monsanto, Bayer etc -- time will tell if the wildlife groups all get along and SIEZE and take advantage of this "crisis")
2. Habitat - goes along with what I listed above - but loss of CRP acres -- we no longer have many patches of CRP touching each other in KS or in very close proximity -- prior to say 2012-2013 or so when most of it started coming out you could throw a dart at darn near any place in KS save for SE KS who had already ruined their habitat in the 90s and get into decent bird #s -- now the upland birds are even more fragmented than they've ever been.
3. Access Issues -- this was caused by what WestKS talked about - when NR deer hunting started - it was the nail in the coffin for access to good upland access and even the decline of some habitat in some areas IMO -- I've got all the WIHA maps going back to when the program started - grew up around Wichita - I was born in 80 - really got into upland hunting w a dog in the early 00's when I was in college and just out - all my 2 buddies and I needed to do was drive about 45-60 mins west of Wichita and we had more WIHA land to hunt than we could even touch if we hunted multiple times a week and almost all of them we'd see birds on - Fast forward to now - there is only one KDWPT biologist worth the money he's paid and he is able to still get WIHA land enrolled that is quality upland habitat near Wichita - the rest has all went away due to deer leasing and likely biologists who dont give a crap.
   
   I moved to Topeka 3 years ago for a biz opportunity and have driven around what little WIHA there is within an hour of here -- there is very very little and I must have not explored it enough but I haven't seen anything that gets me excited about bird hunting so I plan my bird hunts on making 3-5 hr one way drives.
   
   Anyways - where I was going with the deer issue is that KS has seen deer as the low hanging fruit to generate money for their department - what they've failed to see is that you can hunt White Tails in all 50 states - who gives a damn - and the funny thing is good upland habitat is good for all other species as we very likely all know here - KS has failed to put any emphasis on enrolling strictly QUALITY upland habitat which as I said funny enough is great for all the other types of hunting the heralded deer included -- also the likes of the KS Bow Hunting Association which IMO are the most involved Special Interest organization besides the Ag/Outfitters association has managed to all collude together to get to a point where there is ZERO deer management as evidenced by the fact the seasons in some parts are nearly 5-6 mos long. There are many other ways to rail on this - but I think you get the point. So the slippery slope was the focus on deer - extending seasons to ridiculous lengths to satisfy landowners, outfitters and the KBA which has led to even more leasing for stinking equivalent of rodents -- dont get me wrong - I love to deer hunt but have come to hate White tails as they represent the ruination of hunting in KS -- until we get solid deer management (hunters actually relegated to units again - no guarantee on tags - a war on does in certain areas -- IE if you go back to a draw system and force people to shoot does instead of allowing everyone to shoot bucks) possibly fragmented seasons - IE you draw an archery tag for early season and are only allowed to hunt then - there is a "rut" archery - post rut etc -- and break up the damn deer seasons you may get a break in all these yahoos only focusing on deer and realizing more money will come into the state and local communities focusing on upland where you can have many many more hunters enjoy the same resource - to top it off wild upland birds are very SCARCE -- KS right now has a Scarce product -- and doesn't even realize how to capitalize on it and are just letting it get flushed down the toilet. If policies were put in place to limit deer we could solve a lot of problems.
   
   ****Heres a caveat and a problem all this Leasing is creating IMO -- a buddy of mine works for some very wealthy landowners as their "Land Manager" -- he works hard and worked hard to get to this position - he has to fight with these guys all the time over the importance of upland habitat and keeping deer #'s in check -- they simply dont understand it -- but one things he's noticing in his area and he's been preaching to these landowners is that they must keep the does in check as no one else around them is - they are starting to see very few if any nice 5x5 and above racks on deer - as many outfitters, out of state hunters etc are leasing the land or coming in and shooting the first 10 pt that walks by not letting them grow and refusing to shoot does - in some areas all of his food plots get eaten down to nothing - they are causing their own environmental disaster as they are allowing deer to become overpopulated and will ruin their deer hunting slowly and not even know it - the one thing us bird hunters can pray for is a massive outbreak of EHD that absolutely kills virtually all of the white tails and makes these deer horn porn guys run for the hills and go to another state and slowly ruin their trophy quality and upland hunting. With the over population in some areas I think they're setting themselves up for this - also my buddy has been getting lots of complaints about the lack of big deer on camera - he laughs at them and keeps explaining what's going on but they dont listen - they also do not understand the "big" ones typically do not come to a feeder and live out in the sandhills never to be seen - I haven't been able to hunt w my buddy for a few years and miss it - but he always kills some old knarly buck in the pastures with no trees around and his out of state landowners cant understand how -- CRP and no trees is good for your trophy quality too - damn out of state deer hunters never understand that either.
   
   ***Another post script - I'd love to see deer feeding/baiting illegal unless it's with protein pellets only - feeding nest robbers corn/grain is a crime against our upland birds -- all these darn feeders do is mostly feed racoons and possums to the detriment of our upland bird populations IMO. I have no scientific proof or studies - just a good hunch its not doing them any good at all!
   
   The first thing I'd like to see happen are changes in the deer management - when I have some free time and the offices re-open I plan to be a very very squeaky wheel to the KDWPT secretary and my local elected officials - I doubt it will do any good but at least I can say I took some action - I've volunteered the same efforts to a near to me PF chapter so we will see what happens of that instead of complaining about them.

 

[KSnative]

Yikes! Not a deer guy myself, but I don't believe I'd want to see a plague visited upon them, and maybe us - even to clear the path for more better birds.

Again, just asking as a relative ignoramus on the topic but what with the amber waves of grain (and corn, and beans, and milo etc.) - does baiting really help one to haul in the deer all that much in KS?

Never thought about feeders one way or another, but your point about helping out the egg eaters seems well taken.

 

[KsHusker]

Yikes! Not a deer guy myself, but I don't believe I'd want to see a plague visited upon them, and maybe us - even to clear the path for more better birds.

Again, just asking as a relative ignoramus on the topic but what with the amber waves of grain (and corn, and beans, and milo etc.) - does baiting really help one to haul in the deer all that much in KS?

Never thought about feeders one way or another, but your point about helping out the egg eaters seems well taken.

I think it's a waste of money and time - I dont bait - never will unless I want to have something to simply view wildlife as I do believe "baiting" them can serve to provide a consistent place to see them.

I do also believe that in places like Pratt and surrounding areas which used to be my bird hunting paradise until it was all leased for deer and shooting houses/corn feeders went up all over the hills - has served to educate deer - they now know a shooting house equals bad news (to an extent) and may serve to make some of your deer nocturnal -- I dunno - just a hypothesis - I've never hunted that way - but seems to be what my buddy is reporting to me managing for these guys and makes sense. We've always had fun sneaking up on them and seeing how close we can get out in the open. 2 of my all time favorite stalks came out in the wide open with virtually nothing to hide us but some of our creativity. I employed the same tactic the one time I went antelope hunting in NE New Mexico and got within 75 yards or so per google earth -- the antelopes curiosity helped close the last part of the distance as they saw me moving finally.



But back to the topic at hand - I think guys "Believe" this deer baiting thing works as it will give them pictures to look at - but another small data set that myself and buddy have hypothesized is true is the big kahuna bucks will not be seen at a feeder and he typically does not get any photos or next to none of a large buck on their properties, last time we talked during rifle season he aired the fact his clients were complaining to him about it...ha -- these large ones know where to hide in the sand hills and know the routes to take to hide -- the big ones live in the wide open and use the grass and terrain to their advantage. All the "big ones" his clients have harvested the past few years since they shot all the big "dumb" ones have been accidental sightings or just pure luck as they still all think they need to hunt in the trees and near their stupid feeders.

If any of you have been lucky enough to hunt in the sandhills of KS for upland birds with your dogs I'm sure if you were paying attention you busted some of these sand hills bucks - normally you only catch a glimpse or hear a crash as they about let you step on them or your dog get pretty close before they take one bound out of the plum thicket to the other side of the hill never to be seen again or next glimpse is a half mile away. Probably about the same scenario anywhere else you've hunted with native grasses around, that or you never even knew the big one was right beside you or quietly left a couple mins before you and your dog got close. I've found a lot of times the biggest bucks Ive ever seen while bird hunting will nearly let us step on them and get within mere yards before they take off - staying put and not moving is their survival tactic.

I always play Bill Engvall's Here's your sign bit in my head when I see a corn feeder in grass or trees in very close proximity to a wheat/milo/corn field - just a complete head slapper - but a fool and their money!

Secondly I think guys forget the thermal qualities of healthy warm season native grasses in the winter time vs trees -- I know I was the most comfortable on one of my memorable stalks on a mule deer out by Monument rocks w my buddy and brother with the winds howling 20-30 mph from the N and temps in the 20s and 30s -- the grass was very tall and thick - as long as we stayed low which we needed to and took our time crawling up on the deer they never saw us due to the wind and we stayed nice and toasty when we took breaks and chilled if we thought some eyes were on us. I could have stayed the night out there and felt pretty good - stick me in a cedar thicket or a forest with nothing and you'll freeze your you know what off.

***And back to EHD or some other disease - if you care about KS upland hunting opening back up and these deer morons to go away - we need a disease to nearly wipe them off the face of the map, which their overpopulations in some areas are likely setting up - I hope it happens as much as I like seeing them. I just dont know if a disease outbreak can spare mule deer which are my absolute favorite of the deer we have in KS. They've been disappearing for years with no answer as to why here.

 

[KSnative]

I think it's a waste of money and time - I dont bait - never will unless I want to have something to simply view wildlife as I do believe "baiting" them can serve to provide a consistent place to see them.

I do also believe that in places like Pratt and surrounding areas which used to be my bird hunting paradise until it was all leased for deer and shooting houses/corn feeders went up all over the hills - has served to educate deer - they now know a shooting house equals bad news (to an extent) and may serve to make some of your deer nocturnal -- I dunno - just a hypothesis - I've never hunted that way - but seems to be what my buddy is reporting to me managing for these guys and makes sense. We've always had fun sneaking up on them and seeing how close we can get out in the open. 2 of my all time favorite stalks came out in the wide open with virtually nothing to hide us but some of our creativity. I employed the same tactic the one time I went antelope hunting in NE New Mexico and got within 75 yards or so per google earth -- the antelopes curiosity helped close the last part of the distance as they saw me moving finally.



But back to the topic at hand - I think guys "Believe" this deer baiting thing works as it will give them pictures to look at - but another small data set that myself and buddy have hypothesized is true is the big kahuna bucks will not be seen at a feeder and he typically does not get any photos or next to none of a large buck on their properties, last time we talked during rifle season he aired the fact his clients were complaining to him about it...ha -- these large ones know where to hide in the sand hills and know the routes to take to hide -- the big ones live in the wide open and use the grass and terrain to their advantage. All the "big ones" his clients have harvested the past few years since they shot all the big "dumb" ones have been accidental sightings or just pure luck as they still all think they need to hunt in the trees and near their stupid feeders.

If any of you have been lucky enough to hunt in the sandhills of KS for upland birds with your dogs I'm sure if you were paying attention you busted some of these sand hills bucks - normally you only catch a glimpse or hear a crash as they about let you step on them or your dog get pretty close before they take one bound out of the plum thicket to the other side of the hill never to be seen again or next glimpse is a half mile away. Probably about the same scenario anywhere else you've hunted with native grasses around, that or you never even knew the big one was right beside you or quietly left a couple mins before you and your dog got close. I've found a lot of times the biggest bucks Ive ever seen while bird hunting will nearly let us step on them and get within mere yards before they take off - staying put and not moving is their survival tactic.

I always play Bill Engvall's Here's your sign bit in my head when I see a corn feeder in grass or trees in very close proximity to a wheat/milo/corn field - just a complete head slapper - but a fool and their money!

Secondly I think guys forget the thermal qualities of healthy warm season native grasses in the winter time vs trees -- I know I was the most comfortable on one of my memorable stalks on a mule deer out by Monument rocks w my buddy and brother with the winds howling 20-30 mph from the N and temps in the 20s and 30s -- the grass was very tall and thick - as long as we stayed low which we needed to and took our time crawling up on the deer they never saw us due to the wind and we stayed nice and toasty when we took breaks and chilled if we thought some eyes were on us. I could have stayed the night out there and felt pretty good - stick me in a cedar thicket or a forest with nothing and you'll freeze your you know what off.

***And back to EHD or some other disease - if you care about KS upland hunting opening back up and these deer morons to go away - we need a disease to nearly wipe them off the face of the map, which their overpopulations in some areas are likely setting up - I hope it happens as much as I like seeing them. I just dont know if a disease outbreak can spare mule deer which are my absolute favorite of the deer we have in KS. They've been disappearing for years with no answer as to why here.

Just a thought. It takes time to grow a good rack of antlers, so won't the deer hunters sort of lose interest and thin themselves out once the Big Un's are cleaned out? Seems like a self solving problem, maybe. Same on the feeders - if you concentrate the deer enough around the feeders in winter, the disease you hope for (or TB, or something else) is much more likely to seriously reduce numbers. Still not pulling for that though!

 

[Alaskan swamp collies]

Not a deer hunter or a farmer, just a bird chaser. Pitting deer hunters against bird hunters helps no one, there are not that many hunters in the US right now. More people live in cities and could care less about one type of game or the other and the big media wouldn't touch hunting with a 10 foot pole. Now however mention the Monarch butterfly to the general populous and watch the reaction. It is pretty common knowledge that when CRP was established it resulted in more upland birds, deer and also more songbirds and insects and butterflies. Clean farming practices and roundup have resulted in less of all of the above. Getting the people in the cities onboard for more butterflies will result in more of all of above. Take the easy battles first.

 

[westksbowhunter]

Not a deer hunter or a farmer, just a bird chaser. Pitting deer hunters against bird hunters helps no one, there are not that many hunters in the US right now. More people live in cities and could care less about one type of game or the other and the big media wouldn't touch hunting with a 10 foot pole. Now however mention the Monarch butterfly to the general populous and watch the reaction. It is pretty common knowledge that when CRP was established it resulted in more upland birds, deer and also more songbirds and insects and butterflies. Clean farming practices and roundup have resulted in less of all of the above. Getting the people in the cities onboard for more butterflies will result in more of all of above. Take the easy battles first.

No one is "Pitting" deer hunters against bird hunters. What we are doing is speaking out against "deer management" in Kansas. And not really against the KDWPT but against our Legislature. It is the politicians who have created the deer "cash cow". By the way, Kansas had more deer prior to the CRP establishment, so you know. Our quality and quantity was much better in the mid 80's versus now, or any other time. I have been an avid bowhunter since the early 80's.

 

[Powderhorn Jim]

In the areas I hunt very few of the landowners live anywhere near their land. Most live in town, many are non-residents. If you stop and ask at a farmhouse you will most often find that the folks living there are renters and have no authority to give hunting permission. In this situation, most of the land is farmed by lessees and they also lease the hunting rights. It is virtually impossible to find who these folks are. Rather than drive myself crazy trying to unscramble all of this, I hunt publicly accessible land. It is oddly gratifying to me that even on areas pounded to death, some effort and good dogs can produce birds.

 

[KsHusker]

Not a deer hunter or a farmer, just a bird chaser. Pitting deer hunters against bird hunters helps no one, there are not that many hunters in the US right now. More people live in cities and could care less about one type of game or the other and the big media wouldn't touch hunting with a 10 foot pole. Now however mention the Monarch butterfly to the general populous and watch the reaction. It is pretty common knowledge that when CRP was established it resulted in more upland birds, deer and also more songbirds and insects and butterflies. Clean farming practices and roundup have resulted in less of all of the above. Getting the people in the cities onboard for more butterflies will result in more of all of above. Take the easy battles first.

WestKS answered it perfectly - our legislature has destroyed any form of deer management in our state -- I haven't been at the KDWPT Commission meetings to get a sense if the mgmt at KDWPT just bends over to what the legislature wants or not - the couple meetings I went to the head deer biologist though I respected him was not having anything to do with the publics input at all - he already had his mind up on a couple hot button issues at the time.

No one is trying to pit deer hunters against anyone else - I'm a little aggressive in what I stated in wishing all death to White tails - but, that being said a lack of any management at all has caused a lot of issues the rest of us see - residents that have paid attention, non residents whether or not you realize it or see decreasing quality of things and have no clue why - we just answered your why.

****Imagine if other western states some of you folks talk about hunting did what KS did to their big game management and said screw it - Wyoming - hell - we will sell virtually unlimited non resident mule deer tags and will allow non residents with an archery tag to be able to hunt for nearly 5 mos -- if you want a rifle tag as a non resident - well by golly - we are going to divide our state up into 8 sections and you get at least 1/8th of it to hunt (imo that is what giving non res 2 units to hunt in KS equates to) -- Secondly if you're a Wyoming resident - man - you can buy a tag that allows you to hunt in any season with any weapon you choose - so you nearly get 5-6 mos as well to kill a deer - on top of that - damn - we dont need to relegate anyone to a unit - so you can go wherever the heck you want to in the state - a magazine article gets out about a particular area - hot spotting etc - or an area is known for big deer - well the entire resident population of Wyoming can hunt in a 10 sq mile and just concentrate there - we do not CARE --- this is virtually the free for all and circus carnival KS deer mgmt or lack thereof has turned into - -- If a state like Wyoming did that - kiss any ag areas that hold upland game birds good by to any public access or availability of seeking permission = outfitters and landowners would have an economic incentive to hoard big game and sell to the highest bidder.

Prior to all of this - the state conducted per my knowledge pretty extensive surveys and raised or lowered permits depending on what needed to happen in a smaller geographic area -- and by God you weren't guaranteed a buck tag -- todays X Box generation wouldnt know how to deal with that.

 

[KSnative]

WestKS answered it perfectly - our legislature has destroyed any form of deer management in our state -- I haven't been at the KDWPT Commission meetings to get a sense if the mgmt at KDWPT just bends over to what the legislature wants or not - the couple meetings I went to the head deer biologist though I respected him was not having anything to do with the publics input at all - he already had his mind up on a couple hot button issues at the time.

No one is trying to pit deer hunters against anyone else - I'm a little aggressive in what I stated in wishing all death to White tails - but, that being said a lack of any management at all has caused a lot of issues the rest of us see - residents that have paid attention, non residents whether or not you realize it or see decreasing quality of things and have no clue why - we just answered your why.

****Imagine if other western states some of you folks talk about hunting did what KS did to their big game management and said screw it - Wyoming - hell - we will sell virtually unlimited non resident mule deer tags and will allow non residents with an archery tag to be able to hunt for nearly 5 mos -- if you want a rifle tag as a non resident - well by golly - we are going to divide our state up into 8 sections and you get at least 1/8th of it to hunt (imo that is what giving non res 2 units to hunt in KS equates to) -- Secondly if you're a Wyoming resident - man - you can buy a tag that allows you to hunt in any season with any weapon you choose - so you nearly get 5-6 mos as well to kill a deer - on top of that - damn - we dont need to relegate anyone to a unit - so you can go wherever the heck you want to in the state - a magazine article gets out about a particular area - hot spotting etc - or an area is known for big deer - well the entire resident population of Wyoming can hunt in a 10 sq mile and just concentrate there - we do not CARE --- this is virtually the free for all and circus carnival KS deer mgmt or lack thereof has turned into - -- If a state like Wyoming did that - kiss any ag areas that hold upland game birds good by to any public access or availability of seeking permission = outfitters and landowners would have an economic incentive to hoard big game and sell to the highest bidder.

Prior to all of this - the state conducted per my knowledge pretty extensive surveys and raised or lowered permits depending on what needed to happen in a smaller geographic area -- and by God you weren't guaranteed a buck tag -- todays X Box generation wouldnt know how to deal with that.

Bearing in mind that we here are all, at the root of it, on the same side of the larger issues - I beg to differ on one point. I don't believe that KDWPT (if that what they call themselves now) just bends over for the legislature. It appears to me that the reverse is the norm. KDWPT (like most any organization) seeks resources and growth. I think our legislature mostly just defers to the "experts" (KDWPT) and rubber stamps pretty much any thing KDWPT puts in front of them. Partly because it is the easy thing to do, but also because most assume it is just the right thing to do. The solution is still the same - remind legislators of their oversight duties on your behalf, and hold 'em to it.

 

[Miforester]

Agree that misinformation is not helpful (though honest perceptions may vary). I'm not a deer hunter, so that may bias my perspective - but isn't the deer season in Kansas (at least, rifle season that I think most would participate in) quite short? Upland bird seasons, on the other hand, are fairly lengthy. Maybe KDWP should just set a gapped bird season, to allow you deer hunters the run of the state without interference from the rest of us?
Guess that sounds a bit selfish, when I lay it out in print - but might it actually improve access for bird hunters?

This is what Michigan does, when rifle season opens all other hunting seasons close with exception of waterfowl. Rifle season is 15 days, 11/15 to 11/30. When it closes all other seasons open up. Seems to work well.

 

[Alaskan swamp collies]

Guess I didn't express my point real well. State politics have no business being influenced by the nonresident, unfortunately that is not always the case. My real point was that to get more available good habitat and thereby better bird hunting and more land available to hunt might require one to think outside the box. CRP is going away, it's plain economics, the landowner makes more farming to the edge and if he can lease whatever cover he has left to someone else it will go to the highest bidder, which is not necessarily the state. My point was that you are not going to get some socialite in Florida to support CRP for pheasant and deer hunting, which she hates, but mention the Monarch butterfly and she will get all interested. That is even if she can't tell a butterfly from a meadowlark. The best way to manage game is by the biologists, but I don't care which state you live in, the politics manage the biologists. So if we can get national politics to swing to less clean farming practices and less roundup for the sake of the butterfly we will also get more upland habitat for birds. After all get something on the endangered species list and look at all the federal money flowing in. Just thinking outside the box and I still know nothing about deer hunting.

 

[KsHusker]

Guess I didn't express my point real well. State politics have no business being influenced by the nonresident, unfortunately that is not always the case. My real point was that to get more available good habitat and thereby better bird hunting and more land available to hunt might require one to think outside the box. CRP is going away, it's plain economics, the landowner makes more farming to the edge and if he can lease whatever cover he has left to someone else it will go to the highest bidder, which is not necessarily the state. My point was that you are not going to get some socialite in Florida to support CRP for pheasant and deer hunting, which she hates, but mention the Monarch butterfly and she will get all interested. That is even if she can't tell a butterfly from a meadowlark. The best way to manage game is by the biologists, but I don't care which state you live in, the politics manage the biologists. So if we can get national politics to swing to less clean farming practices and less roundup for the sake of the butterfly we will also get more upland habitat for birds. After all get something on the endangered species list and look at all the federal money flowing in. Just thinking outside the box and I still know nothing about deer hunting.

I agree with the butterfly part - Seize the "crisis" or lose it. I hope PF and the other wildlife organizations realize what they have in front of them right now.

 

[KSnative]

Guess I didn't express my point real well. State politics have no business being influenced by the nonresident, unfortunately that is not always the case. My real point was that to get more available good habitat and thereby better bird hunting and more land available to hunt might require one to think outside the box. CRP is going away, it's plain economics, the landowner makes more farming to the edge and if he can lease whatever cover he has left to someone else it will go to the highest bidder, which is not necessarily the state. My point was that you are not going to get some socialite in Florida to support CRP for pheasant and deer hunting, which she hates, but mention the Monarch butterfly and she will get all interested. That is even if she can't tell a butterfly from a meadowlark. The best way to manage game is by the biologists, but I don't care which state you live in, the politics manage the biologists. So if we can get national politics to swing to less clean farming practices and less roundup for the sake of the butterfly we will also get more upland habitat for birds. After all get something on the endangered species list and look at all the federal money flowing in. Just thinking outside the box and I still know nothing about deer hunting.

You did express your point quite well - but I could not agree less. Politics, not economics will kill CRP. CRP pays me not to plant low productivity and/or highly erodible soils that shouldn't have been planted in the first place. I'll never say no to that!

Good point on the Monarchs - but do you really believe that anyone who doesn't know a meadow lark from a flutter by will grasp the importance of getting their mostly urban legislators to prioritize CRP (assuming they know what that stands for)? Not much chance of that, on a large scale.

 

[Alaskan swamp collies]

You did express your point quite well - but I could not agree less. Politics, not economics will kill CRP. CRP pays me not to plant low productivity and/or highly erodible soils that shouldn't have been planted in the first place. I'll never say no to that!

Good point on the Monarchs - but do you really believe that anyone who doesn't know a meadow lark from a flutter by will grasp the importance of getting their mostly urban legislators to prioritize CRP (assuming they know what that stands for)? Not much chance of that, on a large scale.

I don't know, not my skill set. But wasn't there something about the spotted owl in old growth forests and whales and wolves, etc. I'm just saying play politics with what draws the attention. Who can't like butterflies, play that card.