How do you feel about landowners charging to hunt their CRP, etc...

[leeledger]

Crp

In Georgia - pines trees are everywhere and the gov't pays you to plant them. It is illegal for the landowner to rake the pine straw and sell it. I've been told that they are not suppose to lease the land that the trees are planted on because they are not suppose to "profit" from the land. It is there land and they can hunt it. Just not profit from the land that in enrolled in pine tree program.

 

[KsHusker]

most guys who get CRP payments and enroll in the Kansas WIHA program are being fairly compensated, but nothing says they can't or should not lease privately.

The WIHA program is a good thing in one sense and a bad thing in another.

I have nothing against the out of state guys on the board or out of staters in general, but this fact and my observation remains:

Ever since the creation of the WIHA program more and more land has been leased and locked up for private and exclusive hunting rights, whereas before it was more commonplace to do things the old way, ask the landowner if you could hunt, develop a friendship, give him some food, help with a few chores etc...more people were into hunting at that time when it was available to more people to participate in. I think a lot of people who dont quite have the passion and devotion a lot of us do have dropped off the hunting radar altogether and I dont think its good for the sport as they will likely not be passing on the traditions or at least exposing their young ones to the sport.

Now on to the negative of the WIHA program, more often than not, any good piece of WIHA I have come across will not last long at all in the program...most likely in a year or two it will end up being leased. I would display the collection of WIHA maps I have going back to 1996 when the program started. Track down some of the productive grounds for birds, deer especially, and they will most often have a leased sign up the following year. Now as to whether or not they were leased by people in KS or not I cant say, but the increase in leasing didnt happen here until we allowed an influx of out of staters in for deer hunting and more advertising was done about the WIHA program. It was amazing how many acres used to be enrolled within 90 miles of Wichita, Kansas City, Topeka, Eastern KS and in the Gyp Hills by Medicine Lodge where a lot of large deer exist and a couple KS govt officials have deer outfitting businesses. Now the WIHA in those areas is virtually non existent. You Missouri/AR guys have to drive a long ways into KS to hunt anything worthwhile. I feel sorry for you in that regard. Theres virtually no WIHA in SEKs anymore.



As to the original argument....What I absolutely disagree with is someone who gets paid to put their land into CRP then leases the same land to the highest bidder. You should not be able to double dip like that in my opinion. If you are going to try and make money privately on your ground through leasing hunting rights then you should get no govt subsidies from taxpayers. You should also have to pay taxes on the leasing income you receive, though I doubt most of it ever gets reported.

To me this is a chicken or the egg argument - I believe in free enterprise but with hunting, morally you almost need to keep free enterprise out of it. If you make it too expensive for common folk to get involved in and participate in, then I believe you eventually can kiss any public support for game species, quail revival or other sporting animals revival attempts to simply fade into the moonlight. Theres a fine line and Im afraid we're starting to walk a tight rope. If I ever have grandkids I wouldnt really see the outlook for hunting and the general publics support for it to be too rosey.

 

[turtle]

Well guys I dont want any land leased or have to pay to hunt but look at the farmers side of things. Last crp I had I was getting a whopping $55 an acre. Of that I had to "mow" it the first 3 years had to over seed it twice, then burn it every other year. It only took me one time to figure it out that I could have raised beans on it and made money instead of screwing around jumping through the govmt hoops. It did help the wildlife. I fed the wildlife that is owned by the state who doesnt pay to fix my fences, or trucks due to deer damage,etc. I am not bitter but truly how much does a farmer actually profit from this govmt subsity? Not much!!! Field is still in crp as it is carrying a prairie chicken herd of about 40. I will keep it in crp for free to see these birds, oh yeah my contract was over in 2002.

 

[Toad]

WTG Turtle! Help out those chickens!

I am trying to get enrolled in the buffer strip program for next year. I don't know if the strip I have in mind qualifies for subsidies or not. If not, I may end up planting trees and wild plums anyway. Screw it, it's only money... I guess if I did it on my own I wouldn't have to jump through any hoops.

To the thread's original question: I don't think the farmer should feel guilty about charging strangers for access to his land. It's his land regardless of whether or not it is enrolled in CRP.

 

[Natty Bumpo]

To the thread's original question: I don't think the farmer should feel guilty about charging strangers for access to his land. It's his land regardless of whether or not it is enrolled in CRP.

2X

I will bet that all of the answers to this question can be boiled down to two camps: those who actually own hunting ground and those who dont.

We own hunting land here in Michigan and its reserved for family and friends. And have hunted in several places in SoDak for ~ 25 years. Have always either paid tresspass fees or by the grace of local contacts with farmers.

It has nothing to do with whether or not some of this ground is enrolled in govt conservation programs.

Those who are landowners "get it" and those who dont, either "don't or won't"

NB

 

[westksbowhunter]

What's the difference between CRP or crops such as milo or wheat? The farmer gets paid by the gov't either. Thats not near as irritating as a landowner that is getting paid for his land that is in WIHA then lets someone pull the WIHA signs and post it. I actually watched a guy take the WIHA sign down and post it.

 

[KsHusker]

What's the difference between CRP or crops such as milo or wheat? The farmer gets paid by the gov't either. Thats not near as irritating as a landowner that is getting paid for his land that is in WIHA then lets someone pull the WIHA signs and post it. I actually watched a guy take the WIHA sign down and post it.

Im not a fan of Govt subsidies for crops either. But thats another topic another day.

I respect that its their land and they can do what they want to do absolutely. However, though I lack scientifice hard evidence, I bet most of these leasing transactions are not on the up and up and reported as income, the same as the boatloads of cash farmers, land owners, outfitters and various other ways people thought to scam when KS had Transferrable deer tags. Im painting with a broad brush on that one but T-tags were an evil thing KS used to have. Im so glad we got rid of them, however after that all we did was go to unlimited non resident white tail tags over the counter. Thats not necessarily a good thing in the predominantly white tail country either and in a round about way affects us bird hunters.



You are correct in your summation, I do not own any land, however its on my plate to do so. Does anyone have an economic breakdown on what someone gets paid for CRP vs what you can make off of crops in an avg year and what govt subsidies are involved?

Also what would a typical landowner get paid for leasing his land out for hunting rights?

 

[birdman652001]

You are correct in your summation, I do not own any land, however its on my plate to do so. Does anyone have an economic breakdown on what someone gets paid for CRP vs what you can make off of crops in an avg year and what govt subsidies are involved?

Also what would a typical landowner get paid for leasing his land out for hunting rights?

full CRP and reduced CRP scenarios varied from $20-$25 per acre in western SD to nearly $50 per acre in eastern SD. The statewide average payment of $31.50 per new CRP acre is 23% lower than existing CRP contract rates averaging $41/acre. Crops for example this year at a whopping 110-180bu/acre at say $5.60/bu or at one point was $7.30/bu for corn a couple years ago.

 

[CRP]

When crop prices are low, you can understand why some of the farmers would charge for hunting. However, when the prices go up ($5 corn) they still charge, even with taxpayer-funded CRP and subsidy payments.

Regarding the subject of charging hunters, that's free-enterprise. BUT, since my business (or any other) has to pay commercial rate property taxes, how about landowners paying commercial rates on property hunted for fees? I also must have a sales tax license and insurance.

Shouldn't landowners charging fees for hunting be subject to the same taxes as any other business? The state should treat it like any other business.

 

[birdman652001]

When crop prices are low, you can understand why some of the farmers would charge for hunting. However, when the prices go up ($5 corn) they still charge, even with taxpayer-funded CRP and subsidy payments.

Regarding the subject of charging hunters, that's free-enterprise. BUT, since my business (or any other) has to pay commercial rate property taxes, how about landowners paying commercial rates on property hunted for fees? I also must have a sales tax license and insurance.

Shouldn't landowners charging fees for hunting be subject to the same taxes as any other business? The state should treat it like any other business.

unforunately, the land is still considered private unless GF&Ps own it or army of corp or anything that is owned and run by the govt... but when its a farmer's land... its private. no commerial fees can be forced to be paid. farmers arent required to have sales tax license to own a land and charge hunters to hunt. its a whole different ball game. however, he would have to required to report his revenue on any cash recieved on tax return. thats about it.

 

[labsnslabs]

When crop prices are low, you can understand why some of the farmers would charge for hunting. However, when the prices go up ($5 corn) they still charge, even with taxpayer-funded CRP and subsidy payments.

Thats just it, thats exactly when they should charge. If the above numbers are correct and I have no reason to believe they are not. A farmer is getting around $30-$40 per acre for CRP. Instead of $500 an acre for corn, granted I understand there are costs associated with planting corn and harvesting it. But I'm guessing a farmer is going to make more off of corn then grass. So would you rather have a farmer that charges you to hunt his crp or a farmer that tells you to go ahead and hunt all you want. But all he has is stubble fields with not a lick of cover around them?

 

[henhenROOSTER!!!]

I'll just throw in a meager two-cents from my perspective (& someone who has been both a landowner & hunter desperately seeking):

If I did happen to own a piece of prime pheasant-land right now (including PALTRY-subsidized CRP)...As a landowner I would let whoever I dang well pleased hunt at MY sole discretion (all or none, paid or not) - & personally for the most part it would be friends, family, supervised kids, special cases, MAYBE an occasional well-proven respectful gentleman, ect. at no charge. I have zero interest in getting involved in a pay-hunting operation and all that comes with it, but I begrudge no one who chooses to do so.

However, IF in order to receive ANY kind of government assistance, I had to allow complete public free-for-all access for one-&-all to run roughshod over my land at will - for me the DEAL IS OFF!!! From all the landowners I have ever known (and it's a heck of a lot), I am pretty sure that rightfully-so this is the general consensus! I am also fairly certain that it would rather quickly become the opinion of the remainder of you if the shoe were suddenly on the other foot & you as well became owner of a "coveted" piece of pheasant heaven where some of the covetees simply could not resist the temptation to treat your property as if it were their own!

This is America - and last I checked, the owner's FREEDOM OF CHOICE still reigns supreme when it comes to private property! NO ONE OWES ME ANYTHING!!! If someone at their discretion chooses to grant me privilege whether for free or pay, that is their prerogative - not mine or the governments to decide!!!

Having said all this, I do agree that in the case of commercial hunting operations - those guys should have to pay taxes & foot their own bills for land improvement/habitat enhancement! For them to build a private money-making kingdom/empire off of our taxpaying backs is every bit as ludicrous as the other end around!!! :cheers:

 

[oldandnew]

CRP realities

CRP is set aside option to the landowner, not madatory. Established law in this country is private property is under the tresspass control of solely the landowner. As tapayers you pay subsidies on corn, wheat,and all other crops, called LDP's when prices get so low as to threaten the size of acreage planting, and lack of human and livestock food supply. Been that way since the 1930's in some form or other. Your reward for this is stable prices, and availability of commodities on store shelves, and a policy, though unstated, by all federal leadership during our lifetime, to keep farmers alive, sometimes barely, and keep food available and cheap to the voting public. Lots more hungry voters than farmers. As far as letting anyone hunt, or charging to hunt ground in a CRP program, there's no difference. All ground is virtually in some government program that is taxpayer subsidized, or at least implied some guarantee of some form. As with the soil bank before it, CRP, is first and foremost a savings plan, it saves soil erosion, improves water quality, reduces commodities, so that the government can rely on market value for commodities rather than pay LDP's. A few happy side affects are increased wildlife habitat, but not the real selling point. As far as CRP paying 30-40 dollars an acre, you guys need to wake up, CRP is set by county ag boards at supposedly market rent, currently. In some areas of Iowa it is way over 100.00 per acre, In Kansas I have customers getting 75.00. There are farmers/ranchers getting a whole lot less under the old contract, but those deals were made years ago,and were market value at the time. It's no different than selling your crop in the spring, only to find out it's worth more at harvest, ( like this year). most of the low value CRP should never have been tilled anyway. It's not stable, limited moisture, and yields a crop about 1 out of three years, SEE extreme western Ks, All of Eastern Co., parts of New mexico, parts of Texas panhandle. It's not corn ground unless irrigated, heavily, even then inputs to get your 5.00 per bushel corn will damn near break you, fertilzer, hybrid seed, pesticides, herbicides, anhydrous, not to mention fuel to plant and water to irrigate if you need to,andthere's still risk! CRP doesn't necessarily look so bad. Remember,farmers farm because they want to, nobody said they had to, anymore than you have to work a job you hate. If they don't like the problems, income, long hours, unpredictability,sell out and move to town, there's always a bigger fool to buy you out at a profit and take over, because the romance and appeal are very strong. Also,yes I am a landowner, a pheasant hunter, and I lease ground to hunt on. i reserve my ground for myself and friends, I do not sell access, but as stated before I do buy it.

 

[KsHusker]

If I did happen to own a piece of prime pheasant-land right now (including PALTRY-subsidized CRP)...As a landowner I would let whoever I dang well pleased hunt at MY sole discretion (all or none, paid or not) - & personally for the most part it would be friends, family, supervised kids, special cases, MAYBE an occasional well-proven respectful gentleman, ect. at no charge. I have zero interest in getting involved in a pay-hunting operation and all that comes with it, but I begrudge no one who chooses to do so.

.................
Having said all this, I do agree that in the case of commercial hunting operations - those guys should have to pay taxes & foot their own bills for land improvement/habitat enhancement! For them to build a private money-making kingdom/empire off of our taxpaying backs is every bit as ludicrous as the other end around!!! :cheers:

I think you and I see eye to eye. I just didnt frame my points very well. I dont believe that if Farmer Bob receives subsidy payments for CRP he should have to let everyone hunt his land, I just simply dont believe he should be able to charge trespass fees to hunt it.

However if Farmer Bob does not take the Govt subsidy and maintains the CRP himself free of any outside money, then he should be able to charge all he wants.

Thats my main point. I believe the landowner should control whos on the land but there should be some economic penalties if he is trying to profit off of the taxpayers backs by him not being able to charge for access should he take the govt money.

I guess thats my main point of this argument.

 

[birdman652001]

I think you and I see eye to eye. I just didnt frame my points very well. I dont believe that if Farmer Bob receives subsidy payments for CRP he should have to let everyone hunt his land, I just simply dont believe he should be able to charge trespass fees to hunt it.

However if Farmer Bob does not take the Govt subsidy and maintains the CRP himself free of any outside money, then he should be able to charge all he wants.

Thats my main point. I believe the landowner should control whos on the land but there should be some economic penalties if he is trying to profit off of the taxpayers backs by him not being able to charge for access should he take the govt money.

I guess thats my main point of this argument.

can i borrow your car anytime i want to? you pay for the gas... i know you own your car... but the govt tells youre require to keep up to date tags, plates, driver's license, and insurance. so im entitled to drive your car when i want to because basically the govt controls your car. if you dont keep it up to date, the police will find you, and then you got to face the judge if you refuse to fix your responsiblity... all government and same theory youre trying to preach about CRP ground. i'll be down to your place to pick up the car i want to drive... deal?

but no matter.. i wanna drive your car... if you refuse, i wanna argue your point.

 

[birdman652001]

i own land myself. i hunt on the land myself. friends and family are free to hunt my land. however, strangers like yourself, you damn right im going to charge. land owners do not have to have sale tax license UNLESS they are in business of a lodging then yes, they have to have license and such.


but i will still charge. my usual charge is a 100.00 a day.. which is way better than most places ive seen. 500.00 or more.

 

[KsHusker]

can i borrow your car anytime i want to? you pay for the gas... i know you own your car... but the govt tells youre require to keep up to date tags, plates, driver's license, and insurance. so im entitled to drive your car when i want to because basically the govt controls your car. if you dont keep it up to date, the police will find you, and then you got to face the judge if you refuse to fix your responsiblity... all government and same theory youre trying to preach about CRP ground. i'll be down to your place to pick up the car i want to drive... deal?

but no matter.. i wanna drive your car... if you refuse, i wanna argue your point.

I understand your argument, however I think something was lost in translation on mine. Never said they should have to allow any and everyone on their property. Simply not be allowed to charge for access should they receive govt CRP or the new STRIP or Edge (whatever its called) payments.

That is all. Just a limit on if they can charge or not. They should always have the right to keep people off the property if they want to.

But alas that is just a pipe dream. Maybe we can convince Iowa, and other Upper midwestern states to fix their habitat to bring the birds back to alleviate the pressure on where i live....Would save you Northern guys some driving ... ha! :thumbsup:

 

[birdman652001]

I dont think anywhere on the CRP agreement that you arent allowed to charge hunters or anyone to be on your land and have to pay a fee nor does it say you will have to charge sale tax on hunters (and this is what i mentioned before, what you make income on that land is considered to be reported on your income tax form). one way or another, the farmer gets screwed on the CRP plans.

ive lent out my farm equipment out to other farmers before and usually i dont get a payment but a favor or say i need someone to feed my cows when im gone or whatnot. with hunters, its hard to do so. Ive had hunters instead of paying my family hunting, they gave them a pig's worth of meat sent to them and they did. that sort of payment is awesome. it depends on the farmer really i have to say. some are well off they dont need a payment and some are struggling and would scrap anything they can get.

 

[jrice74]

Birdman, do you advertise or want hunters or is this just something you will do in certain situations? Asking because 100 bucks sounds reasonable to me compared with other prices I've seen. I also agree that as a landowner you should be able to do whatever you want with your CRP ground.

 

[birdman652001]

Birdman, do you advertise or want hunters or is this just something you will do in certain situations? Asking because 100 bucks sounds reasonable to me compared with other prices I've seen. I also agree that as a landowner you should be able to do whatever you want with your CRP ground.

I dont advertise. usually friends will ask to hunt, my grandpa's wisc hunters do come and do sometimes ask to hunt our land if they didnt do good on my grandpas land.


now if things go according to weather next year and we get our beans and corn in, we'll have a good year unlike we had before bc this year's wet year, we couldnt. if things go good, i may allow some of you guys come to winner to hunt for just that price.