Hey Flushing Dog Guys

V

V-John

Active member
I've never hunted behind a flushing dog, really. Always pointing dogs. It seems to me, from reading some of the posts that there is a bit more to just following the dog as it quarters in front.
Talk to me about pattern. What do you expect in your dogs, as far as where to go, range, how you would hit a crp/crop field, how you hit lines, objectives etc.
I know how I hunt them with my pointy type dogs and my expectations of where the dog should go...
 
I always hunt into the wind as much as possible with some sort of cover change to work as a block to runners. Where I walk more or less dictates where the dog will go. If the cover is super light I tend to move faster, and slower as it thickens. I will not chase my dogs if they get out a bit far I will whistle sit them till I catch up. If they really get out there I will enforce a come to heel. Now if its a really young dog I may chase him "some" so he can succeed in a flush. You can always teach obedience later but drive is hard to put in a dog.

Now after saying all that I have an old dog that I let dictate what we do. He always finds birds!

Steve
 
Max is just 2 yrs. old, Golden and very aggressive. Birds that fail to move he'll point and hold them, otherwise he's on the chase...if I don't rein him in.

Keeping him in range (20-30 yd) is a continual issue, and especially difficult in heavy sorghum fields. He's very difficult to see so I use a bell in heavy cover; seems to work well.

A flushing dog by nature wants to chase. Bumping a bird or a flock at 50 yards is not acceptable and allowing him to continue this behavior is a problem, hence he gets the buzzer when he's off to the races.

Frankly, watching and managing a dog gets a bit weary sometimes, so I let both of us rest and hunt without him. He did point 8-10 birds last weekend which makes the hunt so fun.
 
I will tell you I hunted behind english pointers until about 15 years ago. My father was a trainer and we always had excellent dogs. They would honor, back and retrieve like machines. He was mainly a quail hunter, with a couple trips to pheasant land a year. He passed that on to me. I ran pointers until quail started to become scarce/non-existent where I hunt. I started going to SD/Iowa 20 or so years ago. For the cover that I typically hunt in SD it made more sense to hunt with a flushing breed. I expect the following of my dog:

1. works hard and stays in cover. I want him to pound the cattails and deep cover, not sniff around the outside.
2. Stay within gun range. I prefer my dog be at 25-35 yards. working cover side to side and back. He will venture out to 50, but then works back. I am not convinced a dog will figure out not to push birds that are out of range. I see no benefit to my dog working at 60+ yards. Just my opinion
3. Stay under control. I have a dog that has a tremendous prey drive. I read someone on here writing that their dog goes " nuts" when he gets scent. That is when training, obedience, time in the field comes in. I won't let my dog hunt out of control. We work quite a bit. Yard work, walks, the lake, collar is always on and we work with obedience.
4. I too try to hunt into the wind as much as possible. Some on here might not believe it, but after having many pointers and a few labs, labs have great noses. I can watch mine jerk completley after picking a scent up.
5. I want him to mark well and get after his retrieves. He scans the sky after a shot looking to mark the bird. In the blind I am able to have him hold until release. In the pheasant field not so much. I am needing to put in some time with this as he starts after bird before it hits the ground. He will start after any pheasnt flushed. I can call him off quickly, but we need to work on it.
6. Retrieve to hand without crushing the bird. He is about 85% here. He will drop a totally dead bird on occassion, and grip a live one a little hard. Not enough to bother me too much, he is getting better.

Overall I think he is progressing nicely for a 3 yr old. I think every flushing guy on here should hunt with a couple pointer guys and visa versa. I think we all might be a little suprised. It really isn't that much different. For every bird found at 150 yards, several are missed by a ranging pointer. For every bird flushed by a flusher, several run out not to be found. The thing I will tell you is that I am very rarely suprised by a flush, he has ways of telling me a bird is there.
 
I put a LOT of effort into training Ruby to sit on the whistle, or to heel on a double whistle, and that has made all the difference. The trick to safety, fun and success, for us, is for me to whistle sit her when she is birdy if she's out of range, but to avoid having to stop her if she's RED hot on a bird. The trick here is really being able to read her. I can tell if she's winded a bird that may be holding (head high and hose tilted up, casting slightly as she pinpoints it) versus when she's on ground scent (nose to grouse, sniffing with a thucka-thucka-thucka-thucka and tail starting to change from wag to vigorous wag to full-on helicopter-tail when red-hot). So if it's wind scent, I look ahead to see likely places that the bird mind be in and quicken my back to get THERE or at least right up behind her. In this case she tends to be pretty easy to keep up with. If it's ground scent she starts moving pretty fast and I need to make a judgement call. If there is a "block" (I LOVE riverbanks!) at the end of the cover and if I can keep up with her, I'll give her her head and let her run it down and flush it. However, if it looks like the bird can run a ways I may stop her, then haul @ss to catch up and even pass her before I release her again.
Unlike a previous poster (and unlike most flushing dog hunters I have spoken to), I WILL run (well, jog anyways) to catch her, if I want to, if I think it's worth it, if it's safe, and only if I'm alone (no other hunter with me, which is most of the time). I will stress again though, if I do, it is not because I CAN'T stop her, it's because I don't WANT to stop her. There's a big difference. In the first 3 years, it was a case that I could not stop her, and it was very frustrating. There was much whistling, yelling, calling, pleading, running, swearing etc... Opening day of her fourth year, she ran after a hen all the way to the road and came an inch from gettign run over - which scared me into finally buying an e-collar. I enlisted professional help with proper use/training, and soon had a reliable whistle-sit and heel in our bag of tricks. As I said, it has made ALL THE DIFFERENCE.
Anyhow, that gives you some idea, but I'll look at some of your specific questions and answer those that I can:

Pattern:
I walk linear covers (hedges, ditches etc...) into the wind, or with dog on downwind side.
I approach and enter dense covers (non-linear) from downwind in possible, or from whatever direction I arrive t them otherwise.

What do you expect in your dogs:
-Unconditional love and respect
-Unconditional obedience to whislte sit and heel
-Decent reponse to casts and lines
-Over time, she has learned not to follow ME, unless I tell her different (so if I head off at another angle to "block" or to take up a strategic position for a shot at where I think the flush might be, she just keeps working the bird unless I tell her different).
-Over time, she has learned that I will whistle sit her if she gets much past 15 yards, certainly be 20, so unless she's on-scent, she had learned to stop and look back at me until I catch up.

Where to go:
-where the pheasant are!

Range:
-depends on the dog's fitness/speed level, as well as your own. If the dog if fast and your are not, then range is shorter (because things will happen fast when pup gets scent, and you may end up too far for a shot at the flush). If you are fit and fast and especially if pup is slower then you might let pup get out a bit more. For me and Ruby, it's 15 yards ideally.

How you would hit a crp/crop field:
-From downwind, encouraging good ranging/casting with whistles and hand-casts.
-Personally, I do some casting back and forth myself, with the dog takes as a cue to cover even more laterally in her own casts (especially hunting alone).
-When put gets on scent, I get as close to her as possible. Nomatter how HOT she is on scent, I will stop her if she breaks 20 yards so that I can catch up.

How you hit lines:
-from downwind, or with dog on downwind side if cross-wind. Be ready for moving FAST or stopping pup if hunting into the wind - combination of good scent conditions and a running bird can mean a fast moving dog, especially if the cover they're actually running in is light.

How you hit objectives etc.:
-not sure what this is

One more note. HUnting alone with a flushing dog, I absolutely LOVE riverbanks. NOthing puts more birds in the air for me than putting pup along the bank and myself 15-20 yards inland. I think it just removes one option for the birds to run, and they tend to head to the bank as a safe flushign location, and can't run any farther. I end up with MANY soggy roosters in my vest!

Cheers,
-Croc
 
WOW!

Well thought out and presented. You covered the subject in depth and I agree with all of it. I'm 75 yrs young and probably won't run after a dog that's hot on a scent; I would rather get the dog to slow or stop until I can resume the hunt - the birds usually won't go anywhere, except farther out!
 
I like my dogs to quarter until they pick up scent and then work that until the bird is flushed. I try to hunt into the wind but when we cant my dogs have a tendency to push out father (50 yrd ) and work back at me. Seems to work out for some great close flushes when the birds are trapped between me and the dog.

I normally hunt with just one other person or by my self so I let the dogs pick the pace. I may be a little different than most but if I know my dogs are hot on a bird I will keep up with them. Im not going to run behind them but I will get up to a fast walk. I think it helps eventually the bird is going to sit and get flushed or flush wild within range.

My dogs are trained to check back in on the tone of the collar. They here it they come back. Im not a big fan of whistles with wild birds. The less noise the better. If I see some cover that I want them to work I can send them into it on a hand signal.

Hunting in a larger group like I am going to Saturday 5 guys and 7 dogs is a different story. When I hunt in a group like that the dogs are more in a pushing mode we want to move the birds to a pinch point and then the dogs can flush them. I will call my dogs back using the tone on my collar if they get out to far and are going to flush birds out of range.

A good example is last week I was out by myself with my 2 dogs and we were walking some grass when they both picked up the pace and took a hard right hand turn from the direction we were going. I kept up at a quick walk behind them and 30yrds later up cam a rooster that was trapped between 2 bare fields.

Its nice to here all the different ways people hunt behind a flushing dog. One of my dogs also has a tendency to point a little bit and I know its not what flushing dogs are supposed to do but I don't mind it every once in a while.
 
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I try to work the best cover into the wind, but eventually you have to go back to the truck unless you have a blocker drive around. I don't like a lot of noise when I hunt, bells, whistles, yelling, beepers, all can alert birds and make them edgy. I prefer a short whistle from my mouth much like I use to call them inside from the yard is all I need to turn them around when they are ranging too far. That being said if the field is full of birds I am constantly on the electronics usually the vibrate button to keep their attention on where I am at.
I find that you cannot train the drive to hunt into a dog, they are either born with it or they aren't. I can control the drive but I cannot make a dog run through cattails or heavy cover if it has no desire to hunt birds. If they have the drive, they look for those spots because they know that is where the birds hang out.
In the end, trust the dog, trust the dog, trust the dog!
 
Tbear said:
I like my dogs to quarter until they pick up scent and then work that until the bird is flushed. I try to hunt into the wind but when we cant my dogs have a tendency to push out father (50 yrd ) and work back at me. Seems to work out for some great close flushes when the birds are trapped between me and the dog.

I normally hunt with just one other person or by my self so I let the dogs pick the pace. I may be a little different than most but if I know my dogs are hot on a bird I will keep up with them. Im not going to run behind them but I will get up to a fast walk. I think it helps eventually the bird is going to sit and get flushed or flush wild within range.

My dogs are trained to check back in on the tone of the collar. They here it they come back. Im not a big fan of whistles with wild birds. The less noise the better. If I see some cover that I want them to work I can send them into it on a hand signal.

Hunting in a larger group like I am going to Saturday 5 guys and 7 dogs is a different story. When I hunt in a group like that the dogs are more in a pushing mode we want to move the birds to a pinch point and then the dogs can flush them. I will call my dogs back using the tone on my collar if they get out to far and are going to flush birds out of range.

A good example is last week I was out by myself with my 2 dogs and we were walking some grass when they both picked up the pace and took a hard right hand turn from the direction we were going. I kept up at a quick walk behind them and 30yrds later up cam a rooster that was trapped between 2 bare fields.

Its nice to here all the different ways people hunt behind a flushing dog. One of my dogs also has a tendency to point a little bit and I know its not what flushing dogs are supposed to do but I don't mind it every once in a while.
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I am not a fan of the whistle either. I rely almost solely on tone. A small, barely audible beep and the dog will shorten his lead. That is well worth the effort of training. I use the whistle only to direct during retrieves. I hunted with a guy a couple years ago that was a constant yeller/whistler/shocker of his lab. That dog didn't know what the hell was going on.
 
I like a dog who puts in an honest days work relative to outside conditions.
We work the wind when we can, and I prefer a dog who quarters both the hunting party and the wind, with more emphasis on the wind.
Generally I let the dog set the range within reason. I find that there is usually plenty of time to catch up to a runner when the dog pauses to work out the track. I do my part and husell up. That being said, I am more comfortable with a little more range out the sides than up front.
I want a dog who seeks out cover without being shown, and who can take advantage of both a high and low head. I want him to check back occasionally, more so in heavy cover.
I spend a lot of time at an early age working on marking and retrieving, hunt as often as I can, and hope nature takes over.
 
As an aside, objectives are considered anything birds might be in, but not necessarily on a line. Plum thickets, etc.

When hunting two flushing dogs together, how do they honor each other? Or do they even need to?
 
V-John said:
As an aside, objectives are considered anything birds might be in, but not necessarily on a line. Plum thickets, etc.

When hunting two flushing dogs together, how do they honor each other? Or do they even need to?
Click to expand...

They really don't need to. Most of the time when 1 of mine gets on a bird the other notices it and joins in and helps track. 2 heads are better than one. The only time it gets tricky is when they are both working different areas and you are trying to watch them both.
 
i am too old to chase my dogs, so i guess that's why i have pointing breeds.
if i want to jog, there is a treadmill at the gym...and i don't have to carry a shotgun......:)
 
V-John said:
As an aside, objectives are considered anything birds might be in, but not necessarily on a line. Plum thickets, etc.

When hunting two flushing dogs together, how do they honor each other? Or do they even need to?
Click to expand...

We insist a dog honors the retrieve not the flush.
I think most of us on here run tone, if needed we can call a dog back to heel. When I was hunting two dogs. Hunting stubble or other difficult situations I'd hunt the more aggressive dog at heel.


Hopefully the dog has his own objectives. You might have to change course or pause for a minute to hit some, but mostly they have developed an association with cover types through bird encounters. Anything outside of their range you have to set the course.
 
You’re absolutely correct that there are real differences between how you expect a pointing dog to hunt vs. a flushing dog. A pointing dog should hunt “objectives” while a flushing dog should cover the “beat” in front of his handler with his nose. This doesn’t necessarily mean a windshield wiper pattern left & right (unless you’re hunting straight into the wind). If the wind is coming from left to right for example, the flusher should punch out & back, running more or less perpendicular to the wind direction to cover the ground w/ his nose thus using the least amount of energy. This doesn’t mean he has to step on every foot of ground of course, depending on the scenting conditions; he may be able to cover 15 yds or more w/ his nose. On those days, you will be hunting much faster to avoid making him cover the same ground twice.

The difficulty in hunting a flushing dog alongside a pointer is that the pointing dog handler will want to wait while his dog works the cover before he moves on while the flushing dog guy needs to keep moving to stay in range. Of course when the pointing dog goes on point, his handler hustles ahead to make the flush so it’s more of a stop/start pace than with the flusher.

When my Springer tells me he’s on a runner, it’s my job to keep up. The best way to do this is to pay attention so you see it coming. While even a newbie can tell (mostly) when a pointing is on point, learning to read a flushing dog takes more skill but as you get better at it, you become a true team w/ each playing his part correctly.
 
I now have a Lab to go a long with the pointers. Some people have multiple guns for situation, horse for courses, etc. I though I needed a waterfowl dog, and a bruiser for heavy brush. Use? Well I saw a guy shooting pheasants on a marsh in California years ago. He used the dogs as flushers and blockers. His cover was thick runs for miles down an irrigation ditch, but narrow. He had 4 labs, He would whistle, and the lab chosen would get out of the edge, run across the plowed field all the way to a road or transection, turn and sit. Another one would cross the creek run along the other side and stop at the end across from the other dog. The other two one on one side of the creek the other with him, and begin working the ditch, other two on hold, after about 100 yards, he would motion the other two to work toward him about 100 yards, and stop. Then resume the pushing. At some point he would either hold his dogs to let the others push runners back to him. We shot nervious flyers, and holders, and shot the runners which had to come back, apparently the birds didn't know that dogs don't shoot. But a lot came back rather than risk abandoning cover. Some of course did fly the field and were saved. But a remarkable game plan. He did it in crop fields and CRP fields, always making the dogs, his partners in the game. The never lost a bird. I admired that. I hope I can get mine to retreive that far, rather than sit and stay remotely. Only pointing dog stunt I saw repeatedly, is a wiley old setter, who realized a rooster was running on her would get out, from a unproductive point, run around a bird and point it coming back, convincing the bird there were two dogs, the one he was running from and the lucky dog he ran into! Can't go either way, kick him out with your boot.
 
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