quail hound
Moderator
The shots taken over flushing dogs aren't a whole lot longer on average I don't think, especially for people who can really read their dogs. Anything marginal I let fly unless it already has a dropped leg or something.
12 versus 20
- Thread starter slidellkid
- Start date
I agree with the previous; this assumes the dog is in range!
Question: If shooting a 20 ga., assuming a longer "shot string" - can one push the lead even farther out than one would with a 12 ga.?
My best score ever on a sporting clay range was with my 20 ga...
OK boy's, weigh in on this one!
Question: If shooting a 20 ga., assuming a longer "shot string" - can one push the lead even farther out than one would with a 12 ga.?
My best score ever on a sporting clay range was with my 20 ga...
OK boy's, weigh in on this one!
wisturkeyhunter
New member
How fast would bird have to be flying for a shot string to make a difference when the shot is going 1,000 fps?
If a 7/8 ounce load is square wouldn't you still have that square with a 1 1/4 load just with a lot of extra help outside the square?
But seriously paper only does so much with something as random as a shotgun ,in the field research is where you learn what work FOR YOU. For me 1 1/4 ounce 20 gauge loads are great.
If a 7/8 ounce load is square wouldn't you still have that square with a 1 1/4 load just with a lot of extra help outside the square?
But seriously paper only does so much with something as random as a shotgun ,in the field research is where you learn what work FOR YOU. For me 1 1/4 ounce 20 gauge loads are great.
slidellkid
Member
I read some information over the weekend about shot strings. The general consensus seemed to be that at far as hitting the bird it really makes no difference if the shot string is longer. Most studies showed a bird traveling 35mph would move an inconsequential distance for a longer shot string to have any impact; however, what can be a problem is that because the string is longer and all the pellets are spread out there can likely be large holes in the three dimensional pattern that may prohibit a mortal wound versus a killing shot. Not sure if I understand all that.
Then again, you have the Pattern master style chokes that claim that because they grab the wad the shot string is less affected and thereby shorter. I had a good buddy that swore his Patternmaster really made a difference on both ducks and doves and that he felt like he put much more killing shot on the bird. I have never tried one so don't know.
Then again, you have the Pattern master style chokes that claim that because they grab the wad the shot string is less affected and thereby shorter. I had a good buddy that swore his Patternmaster really made a difference on both ducks and doves and that he felt like he put much more killing shot on the bird. I have never tried one so don't know.
A lot of people think the Pattermaster is just a marketing tool to sell their chokes by shorter shot strings. I use a Patternmaster Code Black Duck choke in my Remington 870 for waterfowl. It is a full constriction with up to 3' and modified in 3.5" ammo. Shooting on water you diffidently see the shot string is shorter then a factory or other choke tubes without the studs to grab wad momentarily that produces the shorter shot string. My next upland shotgun is going to be a 20ga. and planning on getting the Patternmaster Code Black upland /timber choke which is an improve cylinder choke constriction.
margin of error
A 12 gauge gets you a better margin in the dispersal of shot. Modern loads have made the twenty better than a paper hulled factory ammo in the 1960's. I personally do not use 3" shells in 12 or 20. I am mostly a snap shooter, all with dogs. I normally would assume all of my shots are well inside 40 yards. Days when it's windy, birds are jumpy, and exit quick....you know the pheasant who gets pointed and jumps turned into the gale force wind, gone in seconds! A margin of a 12 might help, that would be the velocity advantage over a 20, the dispersal in the fringe of the pattern, and in my case lower reflexes at my age. Mostly I shoot a 20 high velocity lead loads for pheasants and regular low base 20's for quail and dove, I have shot a lot of surprise pheasants with low base 20's as well. I guess I am not the Robert Roark, or Elmer Keith of firearms. I will add flame to the fire, I think that targets are great, getting familiarity to a gun and repetition, but the similarity between targets and actual hunting are diminished in actual fact. Birds fly faster than a target, they increase in speed, targets get slower, fast! With no predictable terrain the ability to get to the target, both in distance and the up, down, under a limb or sighting through corn stalks or prairie grass, possibly in a snow storm, wind, rain, are difficult to replicate at the skeet or trap range. My theory is stamina, boot leather and legs are the greatest asset of an upland bird hunter, understand habitat, and develop great dogs. Gun and loads are inconsequential.
A 12 gauge gets you a better margin in the dispersal of shot. Modern loads have made the twenty better than a paper hulled factory ammo in the 1960's. I personally do not use 3" shells in 12 or 20. I am mostly a snap shooter, all with dogs. I normally would assume all of my shots are well inside 40 yards. Days when it's windy, birds are jumpy, and exit quick....you know the pheasant who gets pointed and jumps turned into the gale force wind, gone in seconds! A margin of a 12 might help, that would be the velocity advantage over a 20, the dispersal in the fringe of the pattern, and in my case lower reflexes at my age. Mostly I shoot a 20 high velocity lead loads for pheasants and regular low base 20's for quail and dove, I have shot a lot of surprise pheasants with low base 20's as well. I guess I am not the Robert Roark, or Elmer Keith of firearms. I will add flame to the fire, I think that targets are great, getting familiarity to a gun and repetition, but the similarity between targets and actual hunting are diminished in actual fact. Birds fly faster than a target, they increase in speed, targets get slower, fast! With no predictable terrain the ability to get to the target, both in distance and the up, down, under a limb or sighting through corn stalks or prairie grass, possibly in a snow storm, wind, rain, are difficult to replicate at the skeet or trap range. My theory is stamina, boot leather and legs are the greatest asset of an upland bird hunter, understand habitat, and develop great dogs. Gun and loads are inconsequential.
quail hound
Moderator
:10sign::cheers: Inconsequential and mostly a matter of personal preference. As long as you shoot it well and enjoy carrying it is perfect.
vrepola
Member
I go back and fourth on the 12 or 20. I have taken a fair number of roosters with my 28. I hunt with pointing dogs and really only shoot pointed birds. When I take the 12 I usually end up with more pellets to pick out. When I take my 20 I have had a bird here and there crippled. I hate lost birds as we all do. I will say the 12 with a 1 3/8th ounce load is good for longer shots, but when most every shot you take is inside 35 yards a 20 is plenty of gun 90% of the time. Plus the 20 auto is shoot is sure nice on those long days.
As far as 3" 20 gauge I think they are great, but the 2 3/4 get it done 90% of the time.
As far as 3" 20 gauge I think they are great, but the 2 3/4 get it done 90% of the time.
Alot of good thoughts. I have found a couple things help on those long days afield. All of my hunting is done on public land....sometimes away from the truck 4 to 5 hours. I too started feeling the gun was getting a lil heavy in my older days. So...years ago I put a sling on the shotgun.....it's old and of no value except to me so I did it. Alot of time spent walking back to the truck, or following a good pointer....I just have it on my shoulder...I find my arms don't get as tired. Another idea is a Pella Bird n lite vest....it takes the weight off your shoulders....It helps reduce the overall fatigue of the arms/shoulders. Funny I have spent more on that vest, good light shoes, and good dogs than I ever did on my gun.
I like that! But would have to get used to sighting over the "hump".
PheasantWhisperer
Member
Agreed. Im a high school teacher and any load that moves over 1300 fps is considered a handicap load. The kids on the trap team here at school were making fun of me for using the remington nitro's. At 1330 fps they said yeah you can hit em but you're cheating using handicaps! They finally wore on me and I downsized. I still have plenty of pop for pheasants and quail
Dakotazeb
Well-known member
No problem. I was amazed when I got my first A5 several years ago, a '60 Sweet Sixteen, that I never even notice the "hump" when I pulled it up. It just came up a created a natural sighting plane.
slidellkid
Member
I am with Zeb on this. I used a Remington 1100 all through my teenage years and early adulthood for doves and quail. I gave my dad an A5 for Christmas when I was about 25 and he never really shot it so I took it out for doves. I was amazed at how much better I shot with the hump and my percentage of kills per shell went way down. I actually find the sighting plane to be perfect - it's just right there in front of your face. I have been using an A5 ever since I embraced the Hump!
I am thinking a Light Twenty A5 might be right up my alley, but man, those suckers are expensive. I also want to see that new Sweet Sixteen. That is truly going to be a perfect upland gun. I really like the new A5, except for the high gloss finish and I hate the Dura Touch they put on their camo guns as it tends to peel off - so Browning really does not make a finish that I like. If Browning offered a satin finished Sweet Sixteen it would be a beautiful upland gun.
I am thinking a Light Twenty A5 might be right up my alley, but man, those suckers are expensive. I also want to see that new Sweet Sixteen. That is truly going to be a perfect upland gun. I really like the new A5, except for the high gloss finish and I hate the Dura Touch they put on their camo guns as it tends to peel off - so Browning really does not make a finish that I like. If Browning offered a satin finished Sweet Sixteen it would be a beautiful upland gun.
Hump back
My old A5 that I foolishly sold promoted a more heads up gun mount, and it seemed like a more natural sighting plane, for me anyway. It seemed like I had a better view of the bird, too. I was a lot less likely to peek because of the way it fit me. I have a Fabarm L4S on order, but I'm gonna not take it and order the new Sweet 16. I'm pretty sure the 1970 Sweet that I sold weighed 7.25 lbs. The literature says the new one will be 5.75 lbs. You gotta think with the Fiocchi 1 1/8 oz load that new gun would make you feel like Quick Draw McGraw right now. I hunt a lot of WPAs late in the season. I hope they make a steel load in 16, and I also hope you can get a DS choke in light modified. I'm kinda hung up on that choke for some reason. Anyway, I figure if I go with a 16, I don't need a 12 or a 20. It kinda covers it all for me. Hope they aren't too hard to get.
My old A5 that I foolishly sold promoted a more heads up gun mount, and it seemed like a more natural sighting plane, for me anyway. It seemed like I had a better view of the bird, too. I was a lot less likely to peek because of the way it fit me. I have a Fabarm L4S on order, but I'm gonna not take it and order the new Sweet 16. I'm pretty sure the 1970 Sweet that I sold weighed 7.25 lbs. The literature says the new one will be 5.75 lbs. You gotta think with the Fiocchi 1 1/8 oz load that new gun would make you feel like Quick Draw McGraw right now. I hunt a lot of WPAs late in the season. I hope they make a steel load in 16, and I also hope you can get a DS choke in light modified. I'm kinda hung up on that choke for some reason. Anyway, I figure if I go with a 16, I don't need a 12 or a 20. It kinda covers it all for me. Hope they aren't too hard to get.
slidellkid
Member
Mgorvi,
I agree with you. I think the reason I shoot an A5 so much better than a normal receiver is because I keep my head up. I probably missed some birds with a normal receiver because of this.
If you really want a new sweet sixteen, I would call and place an order if they will let you, otherwise, you may not have it for bird season if they are scarce to find.
I agree with you. I think the reason I shoot an A5 so much better than a normal receiver is because I keep my head up. I probably missed some birds with a normal receiver because of this.
If you really want a new sweet sixteen, I would call and place an order if they will let you, otherwise, you may not have it for bird season if they are scarce to find.
Hump back
My old A5 that I foolishly sold promoted a more heads up gun mount, and it seemed like a more natural sighting plane, for me anyway. It seemed like I had a better view of the bird, too. I was a lot less likely to peek because of the way it fit me. I have a Fabarm L4S on order, but I'm gonna not take it and order the new Sweet 16. I'm pretty sure the 1970 Sweet that I sold weighed 7.25 lbs. The literature says the new one will be 5.75 lbs. You gotta think with the Fiocchi 1 1/8 oz load that new gun would make you feel like Quick Draw McGraw right now. I hunt a lot of WPAs late in the season. I hope they make a steel load in 16, and I also hope you can get a DS choke in light modified. I'm kinda hung up on that choke for some reason. Anyway, I figure if I go with a 16, I don't need a 12 or a 20. It kinda covers it all for me. Hope they aren't too hard to get.
My old A5 that I foolishly sold promoted a more heads up gun mount, and it seemed like a more natural sighting plane, for me anyway. It seemed like I had a better view of the bird, too. I was a lot less likely to peek because of the way it fit me. I have a Fabarm L4S on order, but I'm gonna not take it and order the new Sweet 16. I'm pretty sure the 1970 Sweet that I sold weighed 7.25 lbs. The literature says the new one will be 5.75 lbs. You gotta think with the Fiocchi 1 1/8 oz load that new gun would make you feel like Quick Draw McGraw right now. I hunt a lot of WPAs late in the season. I hope they make a steel load in 16, and I also hope you can get a DS choke in light modified. I'm kinda hung up on that choke for some reason. Anyway, I figure if I go with a 16, I don't need a 12 or a 20. It kinda covers it all for me. Hope they aren't too hard to get.
Dakotazeb
Well-known member
From what I've been able to determine the new A5 Sweet Sixteens won't be available until some time this summer. I think all you can do is contact your local gun shop and see if they are getting any in and then get on a list. That's what I've done.
Sorry, I think we kind of hijacked this 12 vs 20 thread. We should take the discussion on the new 16 ga. A5 back to that thread.