Steady to Shot?

[Dakotazeb]

I think we had a discussion about "steady to wing & shot" on this forum some time back. Maybe nearly a year ago before I started running Elle in the NSTRA trials. I've also brought this subject up on another site and it can spark some pretty good debate. I fully see and understand both sides, but what I've gleaned from listening to everyone is that unless you are running in trials that require the dog to be steady to wing & shot it all boils down to what each individual wants and what fits his/her hunting style.

Personally I have never trained a dog to be steady because my dogs hunt pheasants 99% of the time and I've always felt I wanted the dog on the bird as soon as possible after it hits the ground. But that's just me. As for the NSTRA trials it is not requried that a dog be steady to wing or shot and they can release the moment the bird is moved or flushed by the handler.

Always good discussion and more than "one way to skin a cat".

 

[Chuckles]

I would NEVER in a million years encourage/teach any dog (especially a young pup) to tear out after birds on the flush - it is both dangerous to his own welfare/hinders many a shot on an otherwise shootable low flying bird & SEVERELY hampers the dog's ability to mark a falling bird (you are right, a dog can not mark on the run anywhere even remotely near how well he can when sitting/standing & observing)! Once bad habits get started they are not easy to break & often tend to progressively degenerate - "training" works both ways, for the positive-or-negative/good-or-bad...

This was really my question to start, I have gotten Mojo on around a dozen birds and he is starting to find and point pen raised birds pretty well, however up until now I have had him flush the birds, basically because the first few I flushed, he kind-of jumped in on them as I went to flush them - so I have been giving him a woah command until i get behind him and give a okay command to flush. Now he takes off after the bird after it flushes, and in my opinion as he gets faster and can keep up with the bird better it will become more unsafe.

Now I don't want to be letting him start a bad habit. I am not concerned on 100% perfect steady to wing right now, but I do want to continue to move in the right direction. Should I be flushing the birds? or can I have him flush then use a check cord to hold him until the shot? or should I just flush for now and work on the steady later?

Thanks for all the good discussion, however it looks like some may have been deleted?

Chuck

 

[V-John]

I also think that you are looking at opinions that are guys that run flushing dogs which are different from what you are running. (Obviously)
I train mine to be steady all through out.

I do trial but they hunt as well. If I didn't trial, I'd still want them steady.

1. Safety. Huge issue for me. Either gunners or roads or whatever. (I don't care what people say about being on top of a bird when it hits the ground. If being steady helps my dogs safety, and I lose a bird because he's steady, then so be it.)
2. How many times have you had a covey scattered, one bird is pointed, the dog releases to chase, and knocks several other birds? I've seen it quite a bit.

But that's just me. Who am I to tell you what you do with your dogs?

 

[henhenROOSTER!!!]

Whether steady to wing until or after the shot, or to release only after completion of the fall is one thing - but I fail to see why on earth anybody would deliberately allow/teach a dog to tear out willy-nilly like a bat out of h#!! @ the flush??? BAD HABIT PERIOD, I see MANY problems & not a single advantage - just my two cents...

Oh well, each to his own - but I don't ever care to hunt behind my or anyone else's dog that chases wild @ the flush! Been-there/done-that, NO FUN...

 

[moellermd]

but I fail to see why on earth anybody would deliberately allow/teach a dog to tear out willy-nilly like a bat out of h#!! @ the flush???

I can tell you why I allow it. Because the only benifit I see is reducing the risk of someone shooting the dog. Which is worth considering. But in my case I am not mitigating that much risk. Most of the birds I shoot are out of cattails or crap over my head. Out of 40 days a field and who knows how many birds flushed there was only one shot I could not take because the dog was there. I just don't see that much benifit. I would be better off training them not to pee on the tires of my wife's car when it is in the garage. That poses a bigger risk to there lives.

If I hunted quail, released birds, shorter cover or with guys I can't trust then I would probably be singing a different tune. And hey if you want to train your dog to be steady to shot go for it.

 

[GSP]

This was really my question to start, I have gotten Mojo on around a dozen birds and he is starting to find and point pen raised birds pretty well, however up until now I have had him flush the birds, basically because the first few I flushed, he kind-of jumped in on them as I went to flush them - so I have been giving him a woah command until i get behind him and give a okay command to flush. Now he takes off after the bird after it flushes, and in my opinion as he gets faster and can keep up with the bird better it will become more unsafe.

Now I don't want to be letting him start a bad habit. I am not concerned on 100% perfect steady to wing right now, but I do want to continue to move in the right direction. Should I be flushing the birds? or can I have him flush then use a check cord to hold him until the shot? or should I just flush for now and work on the steady later?

Thanks for all the good discussion, however it looks like some may have been deleted?

Chuck

With all due respect, the fact that you're questioning whether or not you should or should not be allowing your pointy dog to flush birds, tells me that you need to spend some time with either a pro or a mentor that can help you.

 

[Chuckles]

So you are saying that no one with a pointer has the dog point until he reaches it and then on command the dog flushes the bird? I have read that that is how some people do it, and also I have hunted with guys who do that. The whole point of my post was to ask for advice on that training.

Chuck

 

[birdshooter]

This was really my question to start, I have gotten Mojo on around a dozen birds and he is starting to find and point pen raised birds pretty well, however up until now I have had him flush the birds, basically because the first few I flushed, he kind-of jumped in on them as I went to flush them - so I have been giving him a woah command until i get behind him and give a okay command to flush. Now he takes off after the bird after it flushes, and in my opinion as he gets faster and can keep up with the bird better it will become more unsafe.

Now I don't want to be letting him start a bad habit. I am not concerned on 100% perfect steady to wing right now, but I do want to continue to move in the right direction. Should I be flushing the birds? or can I have him flush then use a check cord to hold him until the shot? or should I just flush for now and work on the steady later?

Thanks for all the good discussion, however it looks like some may have been deleted?

Chuck

You shouldn't let him flush the bird, that is your job. When you approach him on point always try to swing wide and approach from a 90 degree angle or better yet from in front working towards him. He will be much more apt to hold his point if you approach from the front. He can see you and the bird will be forced to flush to the side or back over the dog.

How solid is he on the whoa command? Is it ingrained in him. He needs to know this command inside and out. If he is not absolutely solid with the whoa command I would discontinue all bird work until he is completely solid with the command.

Breaking after the flush is something that will take some time to work out. If you have bird launchers or can borrow one that will make things a little easier, otherwise your can use a check cord to restrain him and you'll need an assistant to help you. Use Pigeons as they are cheaper. You can also tether the pigeon with some light line so that it will only be able to fly a little ways allowing you to reuse the same bird over and over. Some people will even card the bird, which basically means they attach a light weight to the end of the line so the bird only is able to fly 20-30 yards. You'll have to experiment with how much weight, but I've use a plastic pop bottle with some water in it that worked ok.

Breaking a dog to shot will take some repetitions and lots of birds depending on the drive of the dog. If your unsure of how to proceed then find a mentor near you and see if they can school you along the way.

 

[GSP]

So you are saying that no one with a pointer has the dog point until he reaches it and then on command the dog flushes the bird? I have read that that is how some people do it, and also I have hunted with guys who do that. The whole point of my post was to ask for advice on that training.

Chuck

I will never say "no one," but yes it is (at least in the US) extremely rare and is the exception.

My point about recommending a pro or a mentor was due to the fact that you're asking very difficult questions. The type that can't be answered on a forum. Getting a pointy dog STWS is a complex process requiring more guidance than the internet can offer.

Now if you're working along in the process and have a specific question about a step in the process, I think this forum is of great value.

 

[Chuckles]

I am doing just that. I am just getting him on as many birds as I can to start, I may involve a trainer when he gets to be a year to two old or something, but for now I just don't want to start any bad habits that will hinder STWS training later.

I disagree that it is "extremely rare" to have a pointing dog flush on command, although it may be an ametur hunter/trainer that does so. A simple google search will yeild many results on training a pointer to flush on command.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=training+a+pointer+to+flush+on+command

A few of you gave perfect advice, and I will be flushing the birds from now on. Hopefully some day soon we'll move toward steady to wing.

 

[GSP]

I disagree that it is "extremely rare" to have a pointing dog flush on command, although it may be an ametur hunter/trainer that does so. A simple google search will yeild many results on training a pointer to flush on command.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=training+a+pointer+to+flush+on+command

.

Seriously? Did you read the links you posted? Wiki, half a dozen sites defining what "flush on command" means and an Outdoor Life rag lamenting about the "old ways."

As I said initially, in the US having a pointer flush the bird IS exceedingly rare. Period.

You will be doing well to develop a staunch pointer. Leave it at that.

 

[birdshooter]

I am doing just that. I am just getting him on as many birds as I can to start, I may involve a trainer when he gets to be a year to two old or something, but for now I just don't want to start any bad habits that will hinder STWS training later.

I disagree that it is "extremely rare" to have a pointing dog flush on command, although it may be an ametur hunter/trainer that does so. A simple google search will yeild many results on training a pointer to flush on command.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=training+a+pointer+to+flush+on+command

A few of you gave perfect advice, and I will be flushing the birds from now on. Hopefully some day soon we'll move toward steady to wing.

Chuckles, I think you've received some good advice so far.

Biggest mistake by beginning trainers is to try and make a polished/finished dog before he's ready. You've got plenty of time. More prospective bird dogs are ruined because of someone's impatience and or lack of knowledge. I can't stress enough the importance of yard training (obedience, whoa etc.) before you overlay onto using birds. JMHO, but I think you may be trying to put the cart before the horse. Finding a mentor is going to be your best bet, if not, find some reading material and or video's (I suggested one for you) and learn first.

 

[Shadow]

As I said initially, in the US having a pointer flush the bird IS exceedingly rare. Period.

You will be doing well to develop a staunch pointer. Leave it at that.

have to agree- I've had pointers, setters, and Brittany's for the past 26 years-

I've heard of dogs superbly trained and retrained to be rock steady but when the handler/hunter walks up- comands the dog to break point and flush a bird

I would never take one or all of mine in the same field- why- because when mine honored another dog on point- and saw the person comand his to flsuh- I would see big problems- mine would most likely break also- seeing the other dog jump in- they'd hold for how many of those- not to many- then mine would be breaking when the other dog broke- pretty soon I'd have dogs that break- anticipate the comand-

pretty soon you have a dog or 2-6 that flags, moves, blinks- whatever you want to call it- pretty soon you don't have a dog that holds point-

you want to train yours to hold, flush on comand, you'd expect to not have a shock collar on your dog- you'd expect a perfect dog- you'd train for perfection- accept nothing else- are you hunting the dog alone or maybe sometimes with someone elses dog- big difference- any hunt with another dog would be a big issue- big discussion before you let the dogs out to hunt

lets ask a question- would you take your staunch pointing dog on a hunt with someone who lets his dog flush a bird- in 30 some years I've never met a person who had a real good pointing dog and would go out with someone who had a dog that would flush birds

if you're going to train for perfection- it begins real quick and you have to set the standards for any time you might hunt with someone else

I can release all 4 of my Britt's- but they have locked up- there isn't a bird- every dog on the ground with them honors and freezes- I release they all want and expect to not hold point or honor-

best be real carefull when allowing a dog that has established point- to leave that point- meaning- you better be darn sure they didn't lock up on a bird-
a pointer that locks up on a bird- you release to flush- you're going to be seeing a dog that doesn't really want to be staunch

but heck- you might not want a dog that slams the point, refuses to move, tense to the point of expecting you to come in and see the bird to rise-

ps- steady to when you shoot is very easy to do- if you have your dog steady as in rock solid to the bird flushing- rock solid meaning- it can't wiggle or move a foot

 

[GSP]

Don't confuse a pointer that stands his game until the handler arrives with the gun, then breaks, then the handler shoots the bird as a trained flush.

 

[Shadow]

huh- directed at me?

 

[GSP]

huh- directed at me?

Not at all.

I was just trying to point out to the OP that it isn't uncommon to see hunting dogs break and "help" the hunter flush the bird. This actually reflects a lack of training rather than a "trained flush." A lot of guys aren't willing to not shoot that bird and use it as a training opportunity to steady their dog up. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. A lot of guys are perfectly content with that. Horses for courses.

 

[Chuckles]

Seriously? Did you read the links you posted? Wiki, half a dozen sites defining what "flush on command" means and an Outdoor Life rag lamenting about the "old ways."

I am an ametur as far as training dogs for hunting but that doesn't mean I'm a moron. I knew I had seen something about a pointing dog trained to point then flush on command from a reputable source, NAVHDA. http://www.navhda.org/video.html "Flushing on command"

JMHO, but I think you may be trying to put the cart before the horse. Finding a mentor is going to be your best bet, if not, find some reading material and or video's (I suggested one for you) and learn first.

I have read 2 books and portions of a bunch of others
The NAVHDA Book http://www.navhda.org/book.html
Bird dog - the Instinctive Training Method http://www.gundogsupply.com/bidogintrme.html

and viewed multiple dvds including
Puppy development 1 and 2 from Rick and Ronnie Smith http://www.huntsmith.com/store.php#Videos
the NAVHDA Video http://www.navhda.org/video.html

I have derived knowledge from each source, and I have also read every post in this forum about dog training, and somewhere in the middle of what each suggests I have tried to implement

He knows come, leave it, and woah very well I would say -almost flawless in the yard -, so I have begun to introduce him into the field, and he listens very well when we are out there - although I try to not use many commands, just let him figure it out on his own, except I give a woah command when he is on point.

I would never take one or all of mine in the same field- why- because when mine honored another dog on point- and saw the person comand his to flsuh- I would see big problems- mine would most likely break also- seeing the other dog jump in- they'd hold for how many of those- not to many- then mine would be breaking when the other dog broke- pretty soon I'd have dogs that break- anticipate the comand-

I like that advice, a good reason to keep him staunch is for hunting with others, - I agree that that was probably the best decision, and I plan to proceed in that direction.

Don't confuse a pointer that stands his game until the handler arrives with the gun, then breaks, then the handler shoots the bird as a trained flush.

That is what I have been talking about this whole time, What did you think I meant? A pointing breed that is taught to flush like a flushing dog?

The whole thread has gotten off base, My question was what to do as a first step toward steady to wing - I mislabeled it "Steady to Shot", and now I do have the advice I need to continue on the path I am on.

Thanks again to all for your advice

 

[GSP]

IThat is what I have been talking about this whole time, What did you think I meant? A pointing breed that is taught to flush like a flushing dog?

Yes, in all honesty, that is exactly what I thought you were talking about. In other countries (Scotland I know for sure and I believe most of the UK), that's exactly what they train their pointers to do. That's what I thought you were trying to do. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

So... With that out of the way, I will let you in on a little "secret" that has been used with great success to steady up your pointer and keep him from breaking. The belly band. Gets their attention far quicker than a whoa post, pinch collar, or a verbal whoa.

Once your dog is whoa broke, over lay it with the belly band. Put the dog on a check cord. While walking him give a VERY light continuous stim on the belly band and then (a fraction of a second later) verbally command "WHOA." When the dog stops, release the stim, (he's learning that he can turn the stim on and off by moving or not moving his feet) and praise the hell out of him. Do this for a couple weeks or so. You should be able to walk out in front of him, wave your hat, kick your feet, etc. If he takes a step before you release him, have your finger on the button and give him a poke. He doesn't move until you release him.

Next do it in the field with some stop to flush drills. As he's quartering back to you, throw a pigeon in the air. He will start to chase. Hit him with the belly band and command whoa. Praise the hell out of him. He will learn that when a bird is in the air, he plants his feet. Do this at least 3 times a week until he's 110% on stop to flush without you having to say whoa or hit the juice.

Now start check cording him into planted birds. At the first indication that he has made scent, pop the bird, hit the belly band, and then command whoa. Shortly, he will learn to point on first scent. Once he does that, start attempting to do a flush. If he takes a step, launch the bird, hit the band, and command whoa. Then put him back to where he broke from, praise the hell out of him, style him up, and then walk out front again for a mock flush.

After a month (some more, some less) he should be completely staunch on birds. You can then start adding the gun (assuming he's already been introduced to gun fire) to the flush. Fire the gun after the flush. He will likely break. You know the drill.

Anyway, there are a million ways to skin a cat. That's the cliff notes on what has worked exceedingly well for me.

 

[Chuckles]

Huh, Some clever advice there, I like all of it. I haven't heard of training to point at first scent.

I have heard of the belly band for woah training, something I will have to try.

I have, however already shot birds over him, so it will take a tweak on your method

Thanks for the info

 

[GSP]

Huh, Some clever advice there, I like all of it. I haven't heard of training to point at first scent.

I have heard of the belly band for woah training, something I will have to try.

I have, however already shot birds over him, so it will take a tweak on your method

Thanks for the info

Pointing at first scent simply means he slams on the brakes the instant he gets a whif of bird. Some dogs like to road in on the bird and see how close they can get. You don't want that.

The fact that you have already shot birds over him and I get the sense allowed him to chase a bit, isn't necessarily a bad thing. That should have helped build desire and drive in your dog. Realing them back in is WAY easier than trying to push them out. I won't consider putting the brakes (the meathod I described above) on them until I see that they have that fire in their belly. Usually 6-10 months.

The most important thing is to read your dog. You have to be able to read when he's making first scent, when he's losing interest, when to back off, etc.

Another tip, use different fields and locations to plant the birds. Before long the dog knows the drill. He will start "getting birdy" just because he knows that there are going to be birds in the field. Whatever you do, don't mistake this for making game. If you stim him in this situation, you could easily end up encouraging unproductive points. Mix in training sessions from time to time that have no birds planted.

When he's honest with planted birds, start getting him into wild birds.