Steady to Shot?

Chuckles

Chuckles

New member
Hey Guys,

I am considering teaching Mojo (My 7 mo old Brittany) to be steady to shot, what goes into that?

How do you start, holding him with a check cord and having someone else flush the bird then releasing on the shot? Can I do anything without birds?

Could I have him flush the bird then be steady to shot? Too much to ask?

Thanks
Chuck
 
It is a bit early, let him have fun and work on training other areas a bit. Then you take him off birds and do a bunch of yard work first. If you want help ask, PM and I will reply. BS should have some good help for you too.:thumbsup: as will others.
 
I agree Ken, while some 7 month old pups may be mature enough for the type of pressure usually involved with steadying a dog, most probably would benefit from waiting a little longer. In your case later this spring or summer. He certainly isn't too young to start some of the basic obedience that will needed before bird work, so at least you have something to work on till then.

If your new to training pointing breeds, a suggestion may be to find a mentor or join one of the breed clubs if you have any in your area. They usually are a good resource for meeting people who have not only experience but training equipment, birds and land to train on. Another source would be a NAVHDA chapter as they would normally have a group that gets together and trains on a regular basis.

Last but not least is finding some good books and or videos (I mentioned one in my PM).
 
If you shoot like me you want them to get a head start on the runner.
 
moellermd said:
If you shoot like me you want them to get a head start on the runner.
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MD, man you got that right! Being a lab man, I used to be duck-dog purist/stickler on STRICT manners & obedience in everything, including dropping that butt like a hammer at the flush...Works fine on quail, grouse, ect. - but a man who doesn't learn real quick will lose a lot of running roosters that way. I've come to accept somewhat of a happy medium, satisfied if my dog stands momentarily & pauses to watch the shot, both for his own safety & to mark a falling bird in mid-air - but I want him moving like a rocket after that to almost meet a crippled bird on the ground, except for chasing wild after a totally unhit "gone away" bird. It's amazing how a dog eventually learns the difference, & a little nick and/or blast of the whistle will stop 'em in their tracks if they happen to cross the line! :thumbsup:
 
I am with you HHR, I am one of those that rarely shoots a pheasant dead. I therefore, want my dog leaving at the shot. If I miss, a blast on the whistle and he stops. Otherwise he close to the bird when it hits the ground for the retrieve. Tony has not lost a bird in years and that is the way I want it. I have seen many a steady to W&S dog lose a runner..........Bob
 
My concern is just that HHR, I would hate to have him on a bird that is taking off and somehow have him catch some BBs from someone with too happy a trigger finger.

I totally understand not to push too much, I am just wondering if there is anything I should avoid doing now if I want to have him be steady in the future.

I have looked up our local NAVHDA chapter and I imagine I will get with them before too long.

Bob, so are your dogs steady to shot? You say you want them to leave at the shot, then you said you have seen many steady to W&S lose a runner.

Are you suggesting steady to wing only, and then the shot is the cue to find/fetch? That is my ideal.
 
@Chuckles: Mine is definitely what you call "steady to wing" (I want him standing like a rock & watching/marking a flushed bird, not pursuing it in any way)...But after that, I've finally come to the place that I allow him on phez only sometimes to "break" (a cardinal No-No in standard retriever training) at the shot IF the bird is clearly hit, but that does not mean letting him run like a wild hyena clear out of the county after a "gone away" totally unhit bird. Believe it or not, he has pretty much learned to tell the difference - if the bird crumples at all or is a poorly hit sailer I let him do whatever he wants ASAP, if it's a totally unscathed flyaway I simply hit the stop whistle (with a little follow-up nick if that doesn't work) and/or maybe include the voice command "gone away" or "leave it" & he comes right back and starts hunting again...Not exactly textbook, but it works for me - cause Lord knows a W-I-L-D, running rooster is hardly the textbook definition of a gentleman! :eek:

My dog never loses a bird he is on instantly! But if I hold him back or he hesitates too long on a wounded rooster be4 being released/sent, not always so clean of a retrieval record percentage...

Not so sure what this will do in the long run to his impeccable duck-blind manners, but so far he also seems to know the difference in where he is at & what is expected of him - same as what is allowed inside the house vs outside! :D :cheers:
 
Chuckles said:
I am just wondering if there is anything I should avoid doing now if I want to have him be steady in the future.
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Easy, don't let him catch any birds. If your shooting birds, DON'T shoot anything that the dog takes out himself rather than pointing.

I have looked up our local NAVHDA chapter and I imagine I will get with them before too long.
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Yep, good idea.

Are you suggesting steady to wing only, and then the shot is the cue to find/fetch? That is my ideal.
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I was told by a trainer friend of mine that it is not much further in the way of training to train all the way to Wing/shot/fall then to steady to wing. Dogs are smart and they know when their in a training scenario under your watchful eye and when their hunting wild birds. Most often they will regress a little and a dog that was trained all the way to Wing/shot/fall may go at the shot in a wild bird hunting situation and that's fine in my book.
 
Yes, that is what I'm saying. I train my dogs to stay steady and to leave at the shot. The shot is their command to go and get the bird. I have them whistle trained to stop/whoa on a long single blast. If I miss I can stop them and bring them back. Most dogs are fast enough that they are close when the birds hit the ground. Making the retrieve is fast and simple..........Bob
 
I agree for the most part with FC & birdshooter. I would NEVER train a young dog to do what I am speaking of. I cannot speak to pointing issues, but with a lab for all-around waterfowl/upland - I train first for STRICT/IMPECCABLE mark & blind-handling retrieving manners, then just as strict steady until released upland manners. But I have lapsed/backed-off just a tad only when it comes to wild roosters. Old-skool rules still apply to quail, grouse, ext. & other more cooperative birds. It's just that I have found truly-WILD, running roosters to be little demons & sometimes I need every early advantage I can get in my & the dog's favor!! :thumbsup:

In spite of this, I still lost two birds last time out - that's more than I usually lose in a whole season! In all fairness I knew the first poorly hit long-sailer that my dog couldn't see from deep in the red grass was gonna be a wing-&-a-prayer at best, the other RUNNER (which looked solid hit, except for that tail sticking up on the fall in hindsight) two awful GOOD dogs at trailing cripples neither one could come up with???
 
My dogs are trained steady to wing but not to shot. I believe the sooner the dog gets to the where the bird falls, the better chance we have to put the bird in the bag. I hunt with a GSP.
I hunt quail and grouse as much as I pheasant hunt, and I rarely lose a grouse, quail, or pen raised pheasant. Wild pheasants are a different story. If you hunt ''wild" pheasants you will lose birds. Some dogs are much better than others at finding cripples, my experience is the older the dog, or more birds you kill over a dog, the less cripples you'll lose. But the bottom line is some dogs are much better on cripples than others. I want my dog where the bird fell ASAP.
I don't want my dog flushing the bird either, that's going to open a whole new can of worms that I don't want to deal with. Just my opinion.
I can't help but brag just a little here. Out of 36 wild pheasants I killed this year in Washington I never lost a single bird, never lost a pen raised bird either. In 40 years of pretty hard pheasant hunting I never been able to say that. I think it's really a combination of good dog work and a lottttt of luck, I'm sure no better shot now than I've ever been. I'm sure some where down the line I'll pay for this years run of good luck.
 
Ken that was spoken like a true field trial man. I do agree that low flying birds can be a problem if you have jumpy shooters hunting with you. Other than that I will take my ill mannered, poorly trained, inferior genetic, half breed, inbred, good for nothing, steady to nothing dogs with me next year and not loose a minute of sleep over it. (I do wish they would not piss on my tires all the time.) If they are about to run over a road or other unsafe situation I will simply call them back. But hey everyone has to decide what they want in there dogs. Good for you guys that take the time to train your dogs steady to shot.
 
For the average Joe Blow hunter training pointing dogs, steady to wing is about that is needed. Having them leave at the shot is desirable because it keeps them out of the line of fire. Training steady to shot, is a lot of work that the average hunter does not really need. But can be done if so desired.
The dogs that are going to be used for Breeding and Field Trials are a different story. They must be trained to conform with the rules of the Trials. AKC for example requires full wing and shot training for their trials.
Another Example; I am training Gunne my pup now. He was a year old on 1/5. I have no plans for him to be used for breeding. Even though he has a pedigree a mile long that features some real outstanding Brittany's. He will be just my hunting dog. He will be trained steady to wing and to leave for the fetch at the shot. He is already trained to "Whoa and Come" to the whistle. So if I miss getting him to stop and return is already taken care of............Bob
 
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jsdriggs said:
By the way. there was a great article on this exact thing last fall in Gun Dog. It was about how letting a rock steady dog change his own rules for pheasant. Good one.
I just found it: Dec 2010/Jan2011 issue "A Pointer for Pheasants" by Dave Carty on page 16.
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So can you summarize?
 
Ken, so what is considered steady to shot? If it is the dog flushes, dog freezes, you shoot, dog takes off, that takes what 2-3 seconds. If that is the case how can you say that a 2-3 second wait proves a dogs ability to mark a downed bird? I thought I read that a true steady to shot was that the handler had to release the dog, not just automatically releasing at gunshot.

By the way even though I think you are goofy on this issue you still give out the best training advice as far as I am concerned.
 
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FCSpringer said:
Actually what we consider steady to shot is the dog will sit or stop when the gun goes off. Say you shoot a volunteer when the dog did not see it. "Boom" dog sits and turns to see the fall. You send them and he retrieves. I don't have them go on the gun, I have them sit to it.
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I think it is great guys put in the time training there dogs to compete at high levels but are you really saying that this level is needed/even practical for hunting. A dog leaving at "boom" is not really being steady to shot or even showing its marking abilities. To say that this is the level everyone with a hunting dog should strive for is like Randy Johnson saying that in less you can throw a 100mph heater you should not play in your local softball beer league.
 
FCSpringer said:
I don't get where you think I said they go on the shot. I said all along steady to flush, wing, shot, and fall. They then stay until you say there name to send them If they go on the Boom you lost your 100$. and No I continuously every time this topic comes up, have said it is not needed or used by most hunters. I just point out the good things about it ,that's all.
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Ken your taking this wrong. I don't think you believe steady to shot is leaving on the "boom", but some here have argued that is what it is. I have no doubt your dogs are trained to hold until the next morning if you want them to. My argument is that a dog being trained to a true "steady to shot" is not an indication of its marking ability. Does it show it has a high level of training and discipline yes, but to say that a person has to train a dog to "steady to shot" to prove it has the proper genetics for breeding I do not agree with.

If I did not make it clear earlier I am not questioning your ability as a trainer or your dogs abilities just your rational.
 
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@FC (Ken): I hear ya, I'm all ears...I would much rather go with someone's highly-qualified/expert advice like yours who is a professional trainer, field trialer, ect. over an amateur like me who has only trained 4 personal dogs total in my lifetime! For the most part I have RELIGIOUSLY followed the exact regimen you recommend - requiring all my dogs to sit or stand at the flush (even be4 the shot) & never allowed them to go for the retrieve until specifically released by me. It's not that hard - believe me, if I can do it ANYBODY can...If I were Chuckles (who asked the original question), that's exactly how I would train my pup from the get-go! :thumbsup:

I am the one who has decided only for myself (possibly foolishly) in the case of truly-wild roosters to back-off/cheat just a hair & allow the dog to go a tad earlier @ the shot/initial-fall instead of touchdown on the ground & simply call him back QUICKLY when necessary if the bird is a total flyaway. I still have complete control of my dog - he has already proven his marking ability for yrs in regular training, duck blinds, released birds & even for the most part on the flush/shot/fall with wild roosters...I would NEVER in a million years encourage/teach any dog (especially a young pup) to tear out after birds on the flush - it is both dangerous to his own welfare/hinders many a shot on an otherwise shootable low flying bird & SEVERELY hampers the dog's ability to mark a falling bird (you are right, a dog can not mark on the run anywhere even remotely near how well he can when sitting/standing & observing)! Once bad habits get started they are not easy to break & often tend to progressively degenerate - "training" works both ways, for the positive-or-negative/good-or-bad... :(

You have me reconsidering. When it comes to wiley/cagey/W-I-L-D roosters - I've just about come to the conclusion that no matter what you do, if you don't kill 'em stone-cold D-E-A-D, you're gonna eventually lose a few long-gliders/runners anyway!!! :eek: As to any "volunteer" roosters the dog doesn't see fall or which are downed in a completely opposite direction while he is off on another retrieve, I do have one advantage as a retriever man - I simply "line" the dog up, tell him "dead bird" & send him "back" on a sometimes lengthy blind-handle to within 15-20 yds downwind of where the bird fell & he'll usually do the rest! :cheers:
 
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