Im new to upland hunting, I hunt deer,turkey etc... Im looking at 2 breeds llewellyn or gsp I have 2 breeders in mind mountain view for llewellyns or crosswind for gsp has anyone ever hunted behind either of these breeders dogs. I will be hunting pheasant (stocked) grouse and quail I live in massachusettes. Also i know how far the llewelyns range, just watch hunting with hank, (same line) but how far do crosswinds gsp's range in comparison? I dont want a dog thats going to range out too far. I also want a dog that retrieves. Also I dont think you could compete in trials with mountain view dogs, because of the registry-not that competing is important to me, but someday you never know. Any info would be great thanx.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
cant decide!!!
- Thread starter massman
- Start date
Toad
Active member
I'm sure either dog could be trained to be a more than suitable companion and hunting partner. It just boils down to what feels right. :thumbsup: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
You said you are new to upland hunting. You might consider buying a started dog that shows the tendencies you are looking for as far as range and a natural retrieve. Plus, they would probably take you out and run the dog for you before you sign the check. More money up front, but you would know what you are getting. Just a thought.
If you really want to get some responses on this thread, ask, "which is better, setters or gsps?"
You said you are new to upland hunting. You might consider buying a started dog that shows the tendencies you are looking for as far as range and a natural retrieve. Plus, they would probably take you out and run the dog for you before you sign the check. More money up front, but you would know what you are getting. Just a thought.
If you really want to get some responses on this thread, ask, "which is better, setters or gsps?"
birdshooter
Well-known member
If you really want to get some responses on this thread, ask, "which is better, setters or gsps?"
That's easy... GSP's of course.
Seriously, if you are interested in either breed and have not yet hunted or have seen either work, then I would suggest you find a breeder of each and see if you can't arrange a time where they could show you first hand their dogs working in the field.
You could argue the pros and cons of each under different circumstances or conditions, but much of that will be personal preferences. Each person has their own idea in what they like. Many times someone will just point out that they just prefer the look of one dog over the other as both are equally capable hunting breeds.
The other thing and this something that I've mentioned here many times to people who are interested in a certain breed and that is that there can and will be variations within each breed depending on the line and what the breeder is looking to produce. Sometimes you need to actually see some dog flesh in action rather than just looking at a website or pedigree.
mustistuff
Banned
bird dogs
just can't let this one go by. gsp hands down, no question about it. actually what you should do is to try and hook up with some other hunters that have bird dogs to see different styles and or types of dogs. one of your problems is that you don't know what is involved or needed in a dog so how can you train it. you have to have some idea other than some myth about dogs and their hunting abilities before you end up with a mess and quit. a dogs range is for the most part bred into it and takes a pro to do something about it and even they are able only modify it a little bit. that is beyond you at the moment. setters as a rule take considerable more work than do gsp. that said, one is not really better than the other but how you get from here to there should be considered. you might look into a lab if you don't need a pointing dog, nearly anybody can get them to hunt and retrieve at least a little bit and they are likely to hunt the same field that you do and at the same time no less. another choice along that line is the springer, fairly easy to train and most of it can be done in the back yard. not so a pointer. i would suggest that you find one or several shooting preserves in your area and see if they will let to come and watch some of the hunters and their dogs so you have a better feeling as to what is going on. a book that you had better read is " expert advice on gun dog training" by david duffey. gives a great run down of types of dogs and their particular problems, easy read, probably out of print but copies are around. another is "hunting dog know how" also by duffey. ya gota build a learning curve so those are a great place to start. the next problem you will have is to find a healthy dog that has the hunt in it's background, not as easy as it sounds especially if you are just starting out. can't say too much about making a pet out of your choice, they are just more pleasant to be around in the field. do your home work and good luck. one other thing, there is another clown on this show that has pudelpointers. that would be a wonderful choice if you could find one, i just got his attention so maybe he will answer this and help ya
cheers
just can't let this one go by. gsp hands down, no question about it. actually what you should do is to try and hook up with some other hunters that have bird dogs to see different styles and or types of dogs. one of your problems is that you don't know what is involved or needed in a dog so how can you train it. you have to have some idea other than some myth about dogs and their hunting abilities before you end up with a mess and quit. a dogs range is for the most part bred into it and takes a pro to do something about it and even they are able only modify it a little bit. that is beyond you at the moment. setters as a rule take considerable more work than do gsp. that said, one is not really better than the other but how you get from here to there should be considered. you might look into a lab if you don't need a pointing dog, nearly anybody can get them to hunt and retrieve at least a little bit and they are likely to hunt the same field that you do and at the same time no less. another choice along that line is the springer, fairly easy to train and most of it can be done in the back yard. not so a pointer. i would suggest that you find one or several shooting preserves in your area and see if they will let to come and watch some of the hunters and their dogs so you have a better feeling as to what is going on. a book that you had better read is " expert advice on gun dog training" by david duffey. gives a great run down of types of dogs and their particular problems, easy read, probably out of print but copies are around. another is "hunting dog know how" also by duffey. ya gota build a learning curve so those are a great place to start. the next problem you will have is to find a healthy dog that has the hunt in it's background, not as easy as it sounds especially if you are just starting out. can't say too much about making a pet out of your choice, they are just more pleasant to be around in the field. do your home work and good luck. one other thing, there is another clown on this show that has pudelpointers. that would be a wonderful choice if you could find one, i just got his attention so maybe he will answer this and help ya
cheers
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12gaugedust
New member
I would agree with going out and checking out other dogs at work! Thats what i did, and i decided on a brittany, after looking at a setter. Dont get me a wrong still a beautiful dog, but i wanted everything that the brittany could offer in a bird dog... Do what you feel is right, and what fits well in your family... But deff go out and look and see whats there.. Take a look at a brittany, you might fall in love...
carptom1
Well-known member
I would agree the GSP will be easier to train out of the box. I would not get a Lab or a Springer for hunting solely liberated birds. If you get an aggressive flusher, they will end up catching most of the hens and some of the cocks that are put out. Much better luck with a close working GSP.
mustistuff
Banned
flusher
years ago i worked as a guide on a pheasant preserve using my gsp. didn't like it but the dog did. anyway one other guide used a springer and his dog caught more birds than the guys got to shoot at and at the then rate of $25 per bird, if i where the hunter i would have been pissed
cheers
years ago i worked as a guide on a pheasant preserve using my gsp. didn't like it but the dog did. anyway one other guide used a springer and his dog caught more birds than the guys got to shoot at and at the then rate of $25 per bird, if i where the hunter i would have been pissed
cheers
LoneRooster
New member
both of those breeders are pretty respectable and produce solid dogs. You can train a dog just how you like as long as you do your research and put in the time. A dog at first is an unrefined tool, but if you put in the effort and the energy and the commitment you can turn any hunting dog into a great hunting dog that hunts just the way you want it to and at the end of the day that is what should matter the most. - How he/she hunts for you. Be ready to work..training never stops and is an every day thing. Been doing it myself for awhile now but it is very rewarding :10sign:
mustistuff
Banned
training
sorry but it is not possible to take any hunting breed and turn it into just the way you want it. can't be done by even the best. dogs have genes in them they mostly control what they are going to be, you can encourage behavior but you can't control it. most hunters and their dogs are lucky to get through the day, ie: survive it, rather than have the perfection that they dream about. range is a case in point, the pro's can only modify the range of say a pointing dog, they can't really change it, breeding controls it, not the trainer, also control is not the answer in a field hunting dog but independence and hunting drive and the dogs willingness to please is what makes you both happy at the end of the day.
cheers
sorry but it is not possible to take any hunting breed and turn it into just the way you want it. can't be done by even the best. dogs have genes in them they mostly control what they are going to be, you can encourage behavior but you can't control it. most hunters and their dogs are lucky to get through the day, ie: survive it, rather than have the perfection that they dream about. range is a case in point, the pro's can only modify the range of say a pointing dog, they can't really change it, breeding controls it, not the trainer, also control is not the answer in a field hunting dog but independence and hunting drive and the dogs willingness to please is what makes you both happy at the end of the day.
cheers
LoneRooster
New member
I am going to respectfully disagree...As you describe above you are almost implying that you need no training at all..that a dog will either be born a great hunter or not. In my experience of raising and training dogs is that your interaction with them and your training of the dog has far further implications than breeding lines. I am not downplaying breeding lines as I believe them to be still be very important but stating that only pro trainers can train dogs to hunt in a certain range is a far cry from the truth. I have trained many dogs to hunt within a certain range and I am no pro..just an avid hunter and dogman who enjoys working with dogs. Also, you absolutely can control a dogs behavior. I am a bit baffled by that statement. Anyways, there are many thoughts and philosophies on dogs and raising them and training and everyone of them works in its own way.
mustistuff
Banned
dog control
enjoyed your response, give you some credit and would love to sit down with you over a beer or two and beat this around some more. true, you can make a dog do lots of things, sometime with a good relationship, tricks and or pain but you have to be careful with what you wish and or end up with. what you strive for is independence and willingness to please and not a mechanical response to measured control. you can see that on the face of the dog. with pain or possible some other method you can bring a dog in, there is virtually no way to push a dog out, ie: make it go. a few tricks or encouragement but you can't make it happen therefore no control, it is bred into the dog, that's why people that bread say, gsp will sell you on close working foot dogs or even maybe their wide ranging trial dogs, those were not made, they were bred and if it could be changed by more than just a bit you would see a far wider field let's say at grand juction where they spends thousands of dollars for a type of breeding cause they can't make up for it in training. again, in the field you can encourage a dog to hunt, ya can't make it and if you think you have teach a dog how to hunt you are better off getting a different pup and start over. anyway, beer time, it might be fun. love my dogs and the outdoors
cheers
enjoyed your response, give you some credit and would love to sit down with you over a beer or two and beat this around some more. true, you can make a dog do lots of things, sometime with a good relationship, tricks and or pain but you have to be careful with what you wish and or end up with. what you strive for is independence and willingness to please and not a mechanical response to measured control. you can see that on the face of the dog. with pain or possible some other method you can bring a dog in, there is virtually no way to push a dog out, ie: make it go. a few tricks or encouragement but you can't make it happen therefore no control, it is bred into the dog, that's why people that bread say, gsp will sell you on close working foot dogs or even maybe their wide ranging trial dogs, those were not made, they were bred and if it could be changed by more than just a bit you would see a far wider field let's say at grand juction where they spends thousands of dollars for a type of breeding cause they can't make up for it in training. again, in the field you can encourage a dog to hunt, ya can't make it and if you think you have teach a dog how to hunt you are better off getting a different pup and start over. anyway, beer time, it might be fun. love my dogs and the outdoors
cheers
I have had both. I had a long line of English Setters, some of the best I ever had. Changed to Shorthairs, I found them harder temperment wise, more difficult to control, better in water, and retrieve as better, the setters were softer, especially at home, were great dead bird finders but not classic retrieve. A setter will reason it out and be a useful companion just tagging along. Shorthairs are willing to be collar trained, I doubt if anyone who espouses the breed does not have one. The coat on the setter is a problematic issue, especially in fine burrs. Shorthairs are wash and wear. I like all bird dog breeds, and have had them all, and trained them all. I would have the right setter again. I admire a good shorthair, but I like him to go home with my partner! My opinion is a shorthair is harder to handle, requires repeated lessons, where an english setter learns it once, it might be slower, and it is that way for ever. Less "fur" in the setter, most setters do not run or cold track deer, bugger snakes, porcupines, skunks. Setters are usually anxious about wading to get to ducks or drenched pheasants, the shorthairs are ready. It's about your choice, where you live, how you hunt, your blood pressure, your wifes blood pressure.
pointshoot
New member
agreed
to the new dog buyer:
there's a big gap between what you buy and what you end up with.
it's directly related to the amount of time and frankly, money your willing to spend. I dont throw in money to sound elitist but time is money(nothing is truer)
if were forced to admit they're mostly all the same, more similar than we want to admit
there are though" big running" breeds (the english pointer ,arguably, topping that list)
most entry level home trainers are going to hope for a dog that stays kinda close.good luck
mustistuff
Banned
some old, some new
loved your post, some of it surprised me but then i have not been around setters, just read about them. my partner wouldn't take my dogs home cause if he did he would have no place to sit in the living room. in the past, in picking a puppy i have tried to get a hard headed female and a rather soft headed male. luck or whatever, it has worked for me, can't believe that hard heads have been relegated to the gsp and not to ol' hemlock, don't care what hoffhacker says. some days, burrs have to have a serious consideration or give them a buzz
cheers
loved your post, some of it surprised me but then i have not been around setters, just read about them. my partner wouldn't take my dogs home cause if he did he would have no place to sit in the living room. in the past, in picking a puppy i have tried to get a hard headed female and a rather soft headed male. luck or whatever, it has worked for me, can't believe that hard heads have been relegated to the gsp and not to ol' hemlock, don't care what hoffhacker says. some days, burrs have to have a serious consideration or give them a buzz
cheers
Toad
Active member
I think this is why Musti and others have said that it is a good idea to find a dog that does what you like naturally.
If it stays in your preferred range naturally, then you don't have to worry about trying to change its range. You will avoid all the problems that you might create by trying to reel the dog in.
If it retrieves naturally and enthusiastically, then there's another thing you don't have to worry about trying to drill into the dog.
Just sayin'... If time is money, then finding the dog that fits your style naturally is worth 100X the dog that doesn't, regardless of how good of a trainer you are. Me not being much of a trainer, I look for a sure thing.
I house train 'em, basic obedience train 'em, and let the birds teach 'em everything else. :cheers: I'm not a dog trainer though, so my girls are not fit to run with some of the super dogs on here. They do okay for me, though... Beauty being in the eye of the beholder.
But all that is getting off topic...
If you do opt for a setter, I would (from experience with a long haired dog) clipper the dog every hunting season. Burs are the chitz!!!
mustistuff
Banned
philsophy
me, mostly i have given up training for perfection, used too, but if you are happy having a successful enthusiastic hunting companion i have found there is a better way. mostly i would have to credit dave duffy. like toad has stated, were are talking pointed dogs, do a good job socializing your dog including lots of play retrieving, get them enthusiastic about being around you and going to the field. then, for the most part, shut up. let them hunt, that's bred into them and you can't do much about it except encouragement. you can however destroy it. i have never had to teach a dog to point, back or to hunt the same field that i am in and at the same time no less. dog's if given the chance will pretty much train themselves and will do a good job in spite of our interference. properly socialized, they just want to be with you and will quickly learn by themselves that there are certain things they have to do to get their mouth on the bird. competition dogs are something else, here we are talking hunting companions, a dog that when you come out of the field you both feel like you had a great day together. don't be a control freak, be a friend, they will understand
cheers
me, mostly i have given up training for perfection, used too, but if you are happy having a successful enthusiastic hunting companion i have found there is a better way. mostly i would have to credit dave duffy. like toad has stated, were are talking pointed dogs, do a good job socializing your dog including lots of play retrieving, get them enthusiastic about being around you and going to the field. then, for the most part, shut up. let them hunt, that's bred into them and you can't do much about it except encouragement. you can however destroy it. i have never had to teach a dog to point, back or to hunt the same field that i am in and at the same time no less. dog's if given the chance will pretty much train themselves and will do a good job in spite of our interference. properly socialized, they just want to be with you and will quickly learn by themselves that there are certain things they have to do to get their mouth on the bird. competition dogs are something else, here we are talking hunting companions, a dog that when you come out of the field you both feel like you had a great day together. don't be a control freak, be a friend, they will understand
cheers
koja48
New member
First - to the OP: Select a breed that appeals to you. Then buy from a reputable breeder. And lastly, whenever possible, pick the pup that picks you.
Second - to Must: I also respectfully "agree to disagree." A good pup from a sound sire & dam ("reputable breeder/kennel"), coupled with diligent, consistent & frequent training (read: all year long for the life of the partnership) & the establishment of a strong bond between pup & master CAN result in a great team. All dogs live to please; it's the master's job to capitalize on this. You get out no more than you invest in terms of breeding, time, and consistency in training . . . training a dog is NOT a "I'll do it when it's convenient" project! It requires dedication. My<2-year-old Braque du Bourbonnais ranges as the cover allows but will hunt short when I desire that, is an absolute phenom, and we make a splendid team (IF you excuse my shooting skills, & Hank tolerates that lol.).
Second - to Must: I also respectfully "agree to disagree." A good pup from a sound sire & dam ("reputable breeder/kennel"), coupled with diligent, consistent & frequent training (read: all year long for the life of the partnership) & the establishment of a strong bond between pup & master CAN result in a great team. All dogs live to please; it's the master's job to capitalize on this. You get out no more than you invest in terms of breeding, time, and consistency in training . . . training a dog is NOT a "I'll do it when it's convenient" project! It requires dedication. My<2-year-old Braque du Bourbonnais ranges as the cover allows but will hunt short when I desire that, is an absolute phenom, and we make a splendid team (IF you excuse my shooting skills, & Hank tolerates that lol.).
pointshoot
New member
you train for 1.5 yrs,than you train 'em again for another 1.5 yrs ,then their 3
then you train em some more and when their about 5 yrs, old the pretty good for the home dog handler to hunt and kill birds over
i grew up ain northern indiana,lots of heavy woods, read alot of those stories about ruffed grouse and woodcock hunting in the northeast,been to the big woods of michigan and minnesota a few times,finding a setter locked up in there 150yds back seems like it would be frustrating.
that dont mean stop just part of the fun
we all know about the bells,thats fine if you can keep track of them ringing until they stop
now we have the tone collars ,what a country!
new people that want to take up bird dog handling have this internet thing to help them,advice ,books, like minded folks to train with, find'em on the web
in 1975 i was lost in the wilderness trying to figure it out
you're entering a glorious world, Massman,welcome
then you train em some more and when their about 5 yrs, old the pretty good for the home dog handler to hunt and kill birds over
i grew up ain northern indiana,lots of heavy woods, read alot of those stories about ruffed grouse and woodcock hunting in the northeast,been to the big woods of michigan and minnesota a few times,finding a setter locked up in there 150yds back seems like it would be frustrating.
that dont mean stop just part of the fun
we all know about the bells,thats fine if you can keep track of them ringing until they stop
now we have the tone collars ,what a country!
new people that want to take up bird dog handling have this internet thing to help them,advice ,books, like minded folks to train with, find'em on the web
in 1975 i was lost in the wilderness trying to figure it out
you're entering a glorious world, Massman,welcome
mustistuff
Banned
skinning cats
good thing there are lot's of them cause it allows us to figure out a way to do it. you can in fact get from here to there by a number of means. there are some really critical times that the pup must be paid attention to, most of the time you can let things slide a little. refresher courses are a must but don't have to be all the time in fact you can work a dog to death, or at least bore it to the point it doesn't find training fun. hard work is not the only answer either, try some brains interspersed between the efforts, or at least some thoughts. a high average dog should be able to be turned into a wonderful hunting companion. bells! hell, i can hardly hear the gun go off. electronic gizzmo's, i can barely make my cell phone work. as far as constant training goes, everybody needs a break now and then years ago, one of my best dogs, after a few years would kill every pigeon she could get her mounth on. i would plant them, she would find them, catch them and with them in her mouth would sit and look at me and then crunch them and then spit them out all the while saying to me that every time you make me do this i catch hell over something and i have never seen a pigeon that i liked. game birds are a different thing, no matter what i do with them i get praised so smarten up will ya. jesse had one fault and that was it, she didn't like being told repeatedly to do the same ol' thing and catching hell for it. hunting companions don't have to be fine turned, competition dogs do. big difference. it gotta be fun
cheers
good thing there are lot's of them cause it allows us to figure out a way to do it. you can in fact get from here to there by a number of means. there are some really critical times that the pup must be paid attention to, most of the time you can let things slide a little. refresher courses are a must but don't have to be all the time in fact you can work a dog to death, or at least bore it to the point it doesn't find training fun. hard work is not the only answer either, try some brains interspersed between the efforts, or at least some thoughts. a high average dog should be able to be turned into a wonderful hunting companion. bells! hell, i can hardly hear the gun go off. electronic gizzmo's, i can barely make my cell phone work. as far as constant training goes, everybody needs a break now and then years ago, one of my best dogs, after a few years would kill every pigeon she could get her mounth on. i would plant them, she would find them, catch them and with them in her mouth would sit and look at me and then crunch them and then spit them out all the while saying to me that every time you make me do this i catch hell over something and i have never seen a pigeon that i liked. game birds are a different thing, no matter what i do with them i get praised so smarten up will ya. jesse had one fault and that was it, she didn't like being told repeatedly to do the same ol' thing and catching hell for it. hunting companions don't have to be fine turned, competition dogs do. big difference. it gotta be fun
cheers