How sad is this

Hi Haymaker

I want to thank you for your reply, and I truly mean that. A bit of background, I am 60 years old, grew up in W St Paul MN when it was rural, its now and old inner ring suburb. I started hunting pheasants near Farmington MN, back then in Empire Twp I had to get written permission to hunt, I drove across a plowed field in my 69 Chevelle to talk to the farmer as he worked the field, he gave me permission to hunt fencelines and river bottom. It wasn't too long and fences were coming down, pivots put in etc. NOW Farmington is a suburb. Started hunting pheasants seriously again in 89, had my first dog and told my brothers that with CRP this could be the "good old days" for us. We hunted public land exclusively.

In 1992 we took our first SDak trip, we chose an area with lots of public and walk-in areas. WOW WOW WOW So began an annual pilgrammage. We got to know and obtained permission from several landowners, we never had "exclusive" rights meaning it wasn't saved for us the week we were there but could hunt it. And started building relationships with these guys. In 2003 we had a bad experience, and that experience was we had finally obtained permission to hunt a sweet spot we'd been asking for years. What happened? A guide pulled in while we started to hunt and took a van full of clients out and completely cut us off. What a sour experience that was, and the next 6 years we hunted SW MN public land. 2010 we returned to SDak and driving from Aberdeen to Selby the changes were obvious, the new elevators and ag services ethanol plants etc. Wheat and sunflowers were getting scarcer and corn and beans taking over.

Last year we had a pretty good hunt, we had to pay to hunt an area that previously did not get charged for, and by SD standards it was cheap,the other landowner has 320 acres of CRP that was hayed to standards and it comes out this fall, and it will then be rented out and cropped. BOOM goes the breeding area. I've seen the Sand Lake wetland mgmt district take upland cover with brome and bluegrass (former cropland area, not native prairie) and plant round-up ready corn and beans, a 5 year plan before reseeding to grasses and forbs

Whats my point-I am supposed to have one, right? I've watched destruction of wild lands my whole life, and in the USA our mentality seems to be well just move on to somewhere else. We all know that those places that haven't seen as much development pressure will soon. The slice of pie is pretty damned small and getting smaller.

If I am going to pay to hunt, I will just go to a game farm in MN. I'd rather save my money and take a fishing trip to the far north or go back to hunting sharptails and huns on the canadian prairie or hunted ruffed grouse in Ontario. Why? because I value wild places and wild birds and the experience. Its not about instant gratification.

Dan
 
Hey old and new

Old and New

I guess you can be cautious about new posters with or without an agenda.

I prefer directness without the dance, my experience with that is it slows down getting after it. A very good discussion has since ensued and isn't that what it is all about????

Dan
 
This is a good discussion.
I believe the Farmers posting on UPH are interested and care about pheasants and the future of pheasant hunting.. There really is no other reason for them to be here and they have valid points.
In all my travels I know of only two populations of Wild Pheasants that exist without being near or having access to crops such as small grains, corn etc. There is hay production. And LOTS of riparian brush, cattails etc.
I've shared information and pics with 1pheas4 on these areas.

My point is pheasants need agriculture and Farmers, grasslands alone have little chance of working. Remember Pheasants didn't evolve with North American Grasslands, Short, mixed or tall. Pheasants are here because of the American Farmer.

Even if it's a few acres I applaud any landowner who supplies the needs of a pheasant population on a year around bases. :thumbsup:
 
Hi Dan,
I understand your point completely. I live between Aberdeen and Selby so I am well aware that we are more like Iowa than the South Dakota that I grew up in. When I went into pay hunting it was because I was about to have 3 kids in college at the same time. I believe that I am offering an opportunity for those who choose to participate to have an old time South Dakota pheasant hunt. When I started it was a bonus for me. Now I am not sure that I am better off than if I was farming it. CRP was a good deal the first time it was offered. On its own since it cannot compete with rent. With some hunting revenue and the fact that maybe 2 years out of 10 it is a hay reserve makes it OK. I have a wonderful net worth but not that much money in the checking account. Unless I sell my land I never will have that much in the bank, and I am sure that I will give it to my kids when I get to go meet the lord. So I have to do what is financially sound and that changes every year. So when I hear about greedy farmers either because of how they farm or that they charge for hunting after awhile it gets old. I give away opening weekend every year to friends and family, I guess to ease my guilt. Any way again it was my frustration and your timing that earned you my venting. I defend your right to express yourself, please try to see the other side too. Maybe we can go hunting sometime.
 
Hi Haymaker

No problem at all and no apology necessary. I agree that a lot of the value you have is in your land, but only if you're willing to sell it or borrow against it. I think its fabulous that you helped pay your kids college education through pay hunting.

As the ag boom progresses through the Dakotas and Montana, what will happen is consolidation, farms will get bigger and owned by fewer. Just like the closed loop system in place with GMO crops, options are tied and too few control too much, which bodes badly for many of us (think it can't happen like it has to big oil and others?? think again) Too big means control over the outcomes no matter what, ie can't lose. Superpowers to me is what the trending is across the board.

I know farmers and ranchers need to make money to survive. I get that entirely. How much, how big, how much control??? is open to debate, as that will shape all of our futures.

I've met some great farmers and ranchers in the dakotas salt of the earth, scratching out a living yet ready to help you if needed. And I will miss that as much or more than the hunting of wild birds on the prairie. That will happen as consolidation happens, don't you think?

Dan
 
i fully agree that it gets old saying that farmers that plow everything up & pay to play landowners are greedy but so dose the BUY YOUR OWN LAND comments & the poor me farmer storys... not every farmer is $$$ hungry & greedy but then again there are plenty of guys that have the well if people dont PAY TO PLAY on my land then it can be plowed up just the same & ill make my $$$ that way with no consideration for the wildlife or anything other then $$$ but when they do the PAY TO PLAY thing & leave habitat they play the IM DOING IT FOR THE PHEASANTS & HABITAT CARD that to gets real old real fast also like said b4 if your doing it for money say so if your doing for the wildlife MORE POWER TO YOU & what ever you do with your own private property...

like MNMTHUNTING said pheasants & farmers have been co existing with one another since day 1 but to plow up everything ditch to ditch just cause & skrew the wildlife that lives there is just greedy & that is happening at a alarming rate with the new young modern farmer that really could care less if there is a pheasant on his land to them its just a bird & they have no respect for wildlife just $$$ & keeping up with the richest farmer in there area...

i mean there are farmers cutting & burning & tile n cattails & wet lands just so they can get farmers insurance & plant corn there & when it turns back into a wetland & floods the crop they get payed for crop damage??? on a cattail slough that never maid $$$ for them to start with & helped pheasants/wildlife in the area is that not greed??? if its not then i am mistaken...

i cant remember who on-line here said it but he was a farmer he said there is no poor farmers now days... the ones who are are the dumb 1s... most the time them dumb farmers are the guys who leave habitat for game & or grew up on that farm dont want things to change & go to huge farms...

it is truly sad to see that it comes to either i leave habitat & go broke or i plow everything up & pay to hunt the rest to make $$$ it puts the farmer in a hard spot... but then again there are still good ol boys out there like SDJIM that take the loss & leave habitat & still dont charge a fee for friends & some others to hunt... it has become the norm in SD to lie cheat mislead over book & charge hunters that ask for hunting permission to hunt... that you must pay mentality stems from a nice guy that allows people to hunt his land for free & hears that he can/should be charging a big fee to those hunters because if he dose not the next guy will & dose already so they stick there hand out to any hunter who asks to hunt even if they never did so B4 its just the way it is in many places to hunt now days SD FL TX come to mind off the top of my head major PAY TO PLAY states some of them states you damn near have to be rich to enjoy a quality hunt... its just sad...
 
You can piss & moan all you want about it, but that's not going to change anything. Take your energy that you put into P & M and offer up some kind of logical, workable solution.

I don't like the way things have gone either but I don't think it's going to change any time soon. As long as the non-resident hunters are willing to come to SD and pay the big bucks to hunt, prices will continue to rise and the farmers will keep charging.
 
Ruff grouse hunting in northern Minnesota on 100s of 1000's of acres of public land looks better and better all the time. :10sign:
 
Dakotazeb said:
You can piss & moan all you want about it, but that's not going to change anything. Take your energy that you put into P & M and offer up some kind of logical, workable solution.

I don't like the way things have gone either but I don't think it's going to change any time soon. As long as the non-resident hunters are willing to come to SD and pay the big bucks to hunt, prices will continue to rise and the farmers will keep charging.
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Zeb, there's less people coming to SD to pay to hunt pheasants. Commodities is where the big bucks are coming from, not from pay hunters.

With the 46% down two years ago and the drought related dismal public hunting this year the traffic into the state will slow considerably.

Land prices are part of the equation as well.
 
im with you onpoint i really doubt i will ever make the trip over to SD with how things are over there in recent yrs anybody can come roam our MN woods free of charge & get on some ruffed or spruce grouse... not to mention we have prairie grouse to chase around also 4 kinds of grouse in close proximity to one another if your in the write area of the state...

uguide is so correct its scary thats why it is so sad & many will continue to piss & moan about how SD is going down hill fast...

i am a pheasant forever member like many on this site & im happy to live here in MN wear our PF chapters are still BUYING land to make WMAs & creating places for us piss & moaners from MN to hunt for a lifetime not just lease the lands & lose it the next yr to the plow or rich hunting party...

our best solution is to donate $$$ to PF chapters & BUY UP LAND rather then just PISS & MOAN about how farmers are greedy now days & PAY TO PLAY is to expansive... if we dont BUY the lands outwrite we will lose the land to the plow due to the high value of crop prices... we have a walk in hunting program here in MN also but 1 yr its enrolled & the next some private group leases the land to hunt so thats why i say we need to donate $$$ & help PF BUY some public lands rather then rely on what ever state enrolls for us... i may be wrong but i never seen a peace of PUBLIC in MN cut for hay or due to a drought like in SD so ill give $$$ any day to PF to BUY up lands rather then waste $$$ on WIA leases...

id also rather donate $$$ then buy up my own land to hoard it or keep private forever just to make a buck off... if you make a PUBLIC WILDLIFE AREA its there forever for all of our kids & grand kids to enjoy not just them that PAY TO PLAY that private land people PAY to hunt can be gone to the highest bidder be it another hunting group or to the plow...

its a good topic here no need to crap all over other guys views & thoughts if they differ from yours & it sounds like PISS & MOANING
 
small munsterlander owner said:
im with you onpoint i really doubt i will ever make the trip over to SD with how things are over there in recent yrs anybody can come roam our MN woods free of charge & get on some ruffed or spruce grouse... not to mention we have prairie grouse to chase around also 4 kinds of grouse in close proximity to one another if your in the write area of the state...
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I have a place in South Dakota. This is the sad thing, most of the years, the pubic land they do have(WPA) have been either grazed or cut for hay. Poor cover at best. I haven't bought a pheasant license in South Dakota for 4 years now. To each their own but I have been driven away. The pubic land that wasn't eaten or cut flat, was beat to death by many, many each week. Just looking to scratch out a bird or two. IMO, UGUIDE would be a best option to anybody looking to have a decent hunt. He offer's the best cross of affordable and productive when it comes to the South Dakota experience. Pay to play is there to stay. If not, others have indicated they will just put a plow to the ground.

All this arguing kind of takes away a lot of the fun of hunting. It goes on just about on any forum and any kind of game. Many places it gets down right offensive and rude. When I hear of how duck hunters get into it anymore. It really pushes me more and more to just target shooting. People shooting at one another over a deer stand or your to close to his spread. I would rather hunt a place that has a much greater risk of being skunked but yet void of people. Then to go to combat style hunting at a popular location. All it takes for me to throw in the towel, is one confrontation with one jerk and my day is done. I'm heading home. Hunting for me is the enjoyment of the solitude of the woods, marsh and fields. I go to get away from people and the rat race first and foremost. Killing a limit is secondary. I wasn't raised in the competitive environment. Where I had to win at all costs. Too many place their success on how big the pile of birds are or how big the rack is. If they don't out do their friends, it's just a total failure.

I pack me up a good sandwich(Deer sausage and sharp cheddar on home made bread or liver sausage, sliced raw onion's and salt and pepper on home made bread), something to drink, maybe a candy bar. I find myself..maybe my wife or sons who like to hunt birds off the beaten path in a Minnesota woods in full bright orange, red and yellows. I sit down on a stump alongside some nameless lake and the dog and I/we enjoy a nice lunch..no hurry to get anywhere. Nobody is going to bother us. We have all day to wonder the low spots and ridges looking for a grouse or woodcock. If I get tired, I go home. It's that simple. There's always tomorrow. I don't have to kill anything and the day was still a success. Anytime you can relieve the stress of today's get out of my way or I'll run over you world. It has to be a success.

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U R Correct Sir!!!

Well said On Point. Its about the experience, all of it, laying in the grasses looking at the sky, taking a nap mid-day, smelling all the aromas of the earth (not pig manure!!! ha ha) and if you've ever witnessed my shooting abilities, well you'll know why its all about the whole package, not the killing.
 
Haymaker

I sent you a private message but your box is full!! How much snow your way after these last few warm days? Was your winter been much of a factor yet for mortality???

Dan
 
So far the winter has been good for pheasants. On my land they have not bunched up yet. The bean fields have blown clean so they have food. We have picked up some snow but that will be a positive because of the moisture.
 
UGUIDE said:
Zeb, there's less people coming to SD to pay to hunt pheasants. Commodities is where the big bucks are coming from, not from pay hunters.

With the 46% down two years ago and the drought related dismal public hunting this year the traffic into the state will slow considerably.

Land prices are part of the equation as well.
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I wasn't sayng there were big bucks in it for the farmers. It's just that over the past 20 years it has gotten real difficult in SD to get access to private land due to "pay to hunt". No doubt with the terrible hunting in some areas the past 2 years it will slow down some of the non-res hunters. But probably not the corporate hunters that do pay "big bucks" to hunt the preserves. I've seen the erosion of habitat in the past few years like never before. I do agree with small munsterlander owner on most of his points. I'm just getting tired of people offering nothing but complaints. Doesn' t solve a thing.
 
Keep in mind gentlemen that back in history there were much darker days in South Dakotas Pheasant Hunting History.

Look at the two periods where there were ZERO set aside acres and the average PPM was about 2 statewide. Even with the CRP going down to its minimum over next few years it won't be like the bad old days.

The farm bill will be tweaked, CRP will be more targeted and conservation has proven its value to the taxpayer in clean water and clean air so we will not go back there. It will be even better is conservation measures (just good old fashioned stewardship) is tied to the federal crop insurance program.

sdbirdhistory_zps07141707.png
 
Ruff Grouse Country Minnesota.
Yes, there are 100's of thousands of acres, actually millions. Most all in excellent Grouse habitat. All open to free hunting. Walking only trails everywhere. The last week in Sept and first week in Oct, weather is usually very nice and the Fall colors are beyond compare with the variety of trees We have. After that the leaves disappear with the first Wind, Ruff hunting is at it's peak.
You can pull a rig in and camp most anywhere. You ain't going to have much hunter competition.:cheers:
 
once again onpoint you hit the nail on the head i also go the the fields to get away from people not be cut off yelled at & mean mugged as we walk threw fields we got to hours ahead of time to try to avoid that very encounter...

still just make wonder why or how some of these guys act the way the do in the field i mean who taught these guys to act like its a race to the end of the field & to pull up just ahead or behind a vehicle that is already there & about to hunt & race out in the that field & say things like its public land & cant you see we are hunting here or the best 1 is if you get to a spot early & a car load pulls up is well we have been hunting here for years & we are going to hunt here today so?


my family had a very rude game hog n type pretty much put a buzz kill on there opening day pheasant hunt in MN last yr on a WIHA the last truck to pull up at a WHIA at 8:50 drove down a field road that was not to be drove on any way as it was WHIA walk in hunting area! any way my father who has the breath threw a tracheostomy due to a battle with throat cancer & the rest of the family hunting party WALKED IN like they were supposed to & were walking the property & after they shot there 3 bird the guy that drove into the field came running over a hill yelling that they almost shot him & to get the hell out of here dont you see me hunting ETC. after i went to the WHIA after the fact i seen how much of a AHOLE the guy was there was only 1 direction for my family to hunt from wear they were parked & it was obvious that they would be walking towards the direction the late rude hunter drove to & jumped out he had to walk back towards my familys vehicles so you would think he would realize my family was going to have to walk against the wind in the direction of his vehicle but he still started yelling once they got a few birds & there was no way anybody could of shot him so he was just game hog n & wrecked a good hunt for some older pheasant hunters with new hunting dogs what a AHOLE man...

the next day they ran into some good salt of the earth hunters who had seen me & my dad hunting the public lands B4 so my family & the other hunters talked & worked out who would hunt wear so they didnt mess up every bodys hunt & it all worked out they all got birds i cant remember how many time a truck has passed us slowed down & just tore off up the road & jumped out there truck to try to get to the end of the field 1st it is just cut throat hunting at its best... & i can only imagine how bad SD is in that aspect to little land to many hunters...

so im with you onpoint i love to wonder the grouse woods or prairies wear there is not another hunter in site!!!
 
that how i do in MNMThunting just find the forest we want to hunt find a nice little pull of to camp or head down a forest road to set camp & just hunt till your satisfied...

when we prairie grouse hunt there is no lands we can camp on so we just do the wait in the vehicle thing but the prairies are also good for the soul as you very rarely see another hunter at least early season here in MN if you hunt the prairie chicken season here in MN you tend to see a few other hunters but the most you would have to deal with is 20 guys but i swear i seen 25 guys last yr & we drew 5 tags 30 hunters was to much as everybody was hunting the same public lands i guess i didnt even make it to my honey hole last yr!!! to many hunters
plus they opened up a refudge that was just that a refudge to hunting last yr & the birds were way spooky by the time we got there im sure there was some chickens taken last yr by poachers that were there wk ahead of time to pheasant hunt!!!
 
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