Pointing labs

[carptom1]

A dog that is obedient, has a tremendous drive, points, flushes, blind retrieves anything at long distances with a simple dead command. is neat, cool and fantastic to me. Change is part of evolution and it is a good thing. Our technology, intelligence and our hunting dogs continue to evolve and get better. Hunt behind a well trained, well bred one of these dogs and you cant help but think that the "pointing lab" is one of the most versatile and well rounded hunting dog you could ever wish to hunt behind or even own.

Back to the original question, no I don't think the breed will be split. As stated above a pointing lab is more than likely a product of a line with a timid flush. My concern is that over the years this will become the norm as these dogs become more popular. I worry that hard charging flushers, such as mine, will become less common. All change and evolution is good to one, not so good to others. I get it that if the only good labs you have hunted behind are pointing labs, you would have an affection for this type. I personally do not. Maybe if you had ever hunting behind a well trained hard charger your opinion would change. Maybe if I hunted behind yours mine would. who knows.

 

[peterpointinglab]

I agree with what your saying but.....
My fear is that the PL crazy will effect the breed the way chocolates did during the crazy "I gotta own a chocolate" craze. Unfortunately there are breeders that will breed anything that might make them a buck. Google "silver labs" sometimes! These breeders and pet owners are destroying the breed for a dollar. Evolution is great but it needs to happen gradually. Sticking a couple dogs together that might point and running an add is not evolution. Quality breeding requires a lot of home work some luck and the ability to make hard decisions (culling still occurs). Personally I do not and will not breed.

I have sitting for 3 hours in the rain waiting to run... Why do I hunt test?

If your purchasing a hunting dog based on what color it is youve already failed. And everybody knows you dont buy from a backyard breeder. Thats why we are on this forum. There are some very well respected lab breeders putting out some of the best dogs in the world and alot of those dogs point. And these dogs charge hard! no timidness:10sign:

 

[CRP]

I've said it before and it still holds true. I now buy ONLY black labs from a BLACK LAB ONLY breeder (yellow OK). All of the cute color phased dogs bred over the years have really dumbed down the breed.

 

[Gatzby]

I think you missed his point. He is thinking that labs flush and a group of flushers that weren't good at it turned into pointers. Somebody ran with these pointers and now you have pointing labs.

They could probably break the labs up into 4 breeds, show lab, regular lab (for hunting and pets), robot dogs (for trials), and maybe pointers.

Dogs that can compete in FT are not robots! It does not matter if it is retreiver, flusher or pointer trials....Trial dogs are excellent dogs trained by excellent trainers and handled by excellent handlers. I have not trained, or handled a dog to QAA status but I hope to. Please do not insult the efforts or commitment it takes to earn an AFC/FC title. I have never met FCSpringer but I am pretty damned sure he spent more hours training today than most spent in the last month.....He has earned a AFC.

 

[morrismike]

Dogs that can compete in FT are not robots! It does not matter if it is retreiver, flusher or pointer trials....Trial dogs are excellent dogs trained by excellent trainers and handled by excellent handlers. I have not trained, or handled a dog to QAA status but I hope to. Please do not insult the efforts or commitment it takes to earn an AFC/FC title. I have never met FCSpringer but I am pretty damned sure he spent more hours training today than most spent in the last month.....He has earned a AFC.

I was not talking about field trial springers. I was talking about FT labs and the sort of animals those guys select and what they breed for.

 

[keskam]

I was not talking about field trial springers. I was talking about FT labs and the sort of animals those guys select and what they breed for.

Why dont you clue us in on what they breed for and what dogs they select to make these robots?

I dont know about the Springer trials but i bet they get alot of training every week just like the Trial Labs do (probably around 4 to 6 days a week,)

FC Springer, we do have upland tests for Pointing Labs APLA American Pointing Lab Assoc,

Here is Ikes first bird in a CPR test (certified pointing retriever) He was 1 year old at this test in April of this year He was on point over 1 minute on this bird and was almost steady to wing on it,


http://youtu.be/ISS4ax2CHOA

Here is Star on a Rooster.

http://youtu.be/d5PULmQ9Ev4

 

[Gatzby]

I was not talking about field trial springers. I was talking about FT labs and the sort of animals those guys select and what they breed for.

I was remaining a bit more general. But what I was saying is for a lab or any breed to get to FT level a ton of effort is required. First you need to find a breeding that may produce a dog capable. Many times these pups cost I excess of 2500$. Now you need access to fields, ponds designed for FT training. Now add on a bird pen with ducks, pheasants, and chuckers. Next you will need stick men, remote retired gunners, a couple bird boy launchers or thunder launchers. Than hire or find a couple of qualified assistants 3 would be best. Finally your ready to have fun and start training. I think most guys train 5-6 days a week with a Field and yard session each day. With luck your pup has what it takes, if not you just trained a extremely excellent hunting companion. The work ethic and temperment required of both the dog and trainer is amazing.

Anyone who thinks FC/AFC are hyper has never sat in the gallery at a FT. Most of these dogs will nap in the holding blinds while waiting their turn. A derby dog named ammo always had to stretch at the line before she would run! Yes some FT breedings produce over revved dogs, but these dogs rarely excell so they don't get bred.

I have a 14 month old BLM that is by a FC/AFC x FC MH. He is sleeping at the foot of my hotel room bed right now. In about an hour he will be running against 42 other dogs. Temperamental he is not

I guess we have differing opinions as to what makes a good breeding and that is ok. But please don't insult what these dogs can do. Look up FT on entry express.com and find one near you. Wear some dark clothing bring a lawn chair and check it out. I bet you will be amazed by the work and temperment of these athletes

Steve

 

[keskam]

I was remaining a bit more general. But what I was saying is for a lab or any breed to get to FT level a ton of effort is required. First you need to find a breeding that may produce a dog capable. Many times these pups cost I excess of 2500$. Now you need access to fields, ponds designed for FT training. Now add on a bird pen with ducks, pheasants, and chuckers. Next you will need stick men, remote retired gunners, a couple bird boy launchers or thunder launchers. Than hire or find a couple of qualified assistants 3 would be best. Finally your ready to have fun and start training. I think most guys train 5-6 days a week with a Field and yard session each day. With luck your pup has what it takes, if not you just trained a extremely excellent hunting companion. The work ethic and temperment required of both the dog and trainer is amazing.

Anyone who thinks FC/AFC are hyper has never sat in the gallery at a FT. Most of these dogs will nap in the holding blinds while waiting their turn. A derby dog named ammo always had to stretch at the line before she would run! Yes some FT breedings produce over revved dogs, but these dogs rarely excell so they don't get bred.

I have a 14 month old BLM that is by a FC/AFC x FC MH. He is sleeping at the foot of my hotel room bed right now. In about an hour he will be running against 42 other dogs. Temperamental he is not

I guess we have differing opinions as to what makes a good breeding and that is ok. But please don't insult what these dogs can do. Look up FT on entry express.com and find one near you. Wear some dark clothing bring a lawn chair and check it out. I bet you will be amazed by the work and temperment of these athletes

Steve

Are you running the Colorado FT derby?

 

[Gatzby]

Are you running the Colorado FT derby?

Oh heck no, I am no where near that level. My pups running a midwest owner/handler & derby fun day test. This is a training day camouflaged as a test. Bragging rights are all that are at risk. Yesterday we jammed!
Thanks for asking

 

[jeffstally]

Here is a whole new type of pointing lab:

http://www.hybridretrievers.com/

They are definitely interesting dogs.

 

[morrismike]

Why dont you clue us in on what they breed for and what dogs they select to make these robots?

I dont know about the Springer trials but i bet they get alot of training every week just like the Trial Labs do (probably around 4 to 6 days a week,)

FC Springer, we do have upland tests for Pointing Labs APLA American Pointing Lab Assoc,

Here is Ikes first bird in a CPR test (certified pointing retriever) He was 1 year old at this test in April of this year He was on point over 1 minute on this bird and was almost steady to wing on it,


http://youtu.be/ISS4ax2CHOA

Here is Star on a Rooster.

http://youtu.be/d5PULmQ9Ev4

I would bet a Ben Franklin FCspringer isn't using a tenth (in level or frequency) as much electricity as the lab trialers.

 

[morrismike]

I was remaining a bit more general. But what I was saying is for a lab or any breed to get to FT level a ton of effort is required. First you need to find a breeding that may produce a dog capable. Many times these pups cost I excess of 2500$. Now you need access to fields, ponds designed for FT training. Now add on a bird pen with ducks, pheasants, and chuckers. Next you will need stick men, remote retired gunners, a couple bird boy launchers or thunder launchers. Than hire or find a couple of qualified assistants 3 would be best. Finally your ready to have fun and start training. I think most guys train 5-6 days a week with a Field and yard session each day. With luck your pup has what it takes, if not you just trained a extremely excellent hunting companion. The work ethic and temperment required of both the dog and trainer is amazing.

Anyone who thinks FC/AFC are hyper has never sat in the gallery at a FT. Most of these dogs will nap in the holding blinds while waiting their turn. A derby dog named ammo always had to stretch at the line before she would run! Yes some FT breedings produce over revved dogs, but these dogs rarely excell so they don't get bred.

I have a 14 month old BLM that is by a FC/AFC x FC MH. He is sleeping at the foot of my hotel room bed right now. In about an hour he will be running against 42 other dogs. Temperamental he is not

I guess we have differing opinions as to what makes a good breeding and that is ok. But please don't insult what these dogs can do. Look up FT on entry express.com and find one near you. Wear some dark clothing bring a lawn chair and check it out. I bet you will be amazed by the work and temperment of these athletes

Steve

What would be the problem with wearing a white overcoat?

 

[FCSpringer]

I think I was mis read a little. I know the pointing dogs surely must be doing it on up land. They can't point ducks,LOL. Speaking in a true sense to me is I guess related to AKC when I think any trials. In my opinion is all, I think the breed would benefit from field work finding flushing game and being judged along with the retriever series. Place it in as a final run for the ones that make it so far or something. Thats just me. I think they could make them a stronger breed if they could work that in some how. But lets not make this about me and shock collars please, LOL. I use them as needed just like any one else. Some dogs not at all, but some it is a valuable tool. I was not trying to rial any one up. I would like to see Labs be a flusher, and a very good one in the field as well as a retriever is all. But in no way do I want any one to think I am trash talking a certain dog. I have no real say in the breed any more. It's up to you Lab folks to sort it out.

 

[wesslpointer]

My current 8 yr old female lab is from a "pointing" kennel. Trieven in Lovell WYO. So is my pup. She has never shown a propensity to point, which is fine with me. I didn't buy her with granduous thoughts of pretty points and solid backs. I bought her from that kennel because everyone I knew who got dogs from that kennel, and there are A LOT, spoke so highly of their drive, character, health, and size (not big).
They are everything of that, and more. Great around the house, great traveling. Very hardy on our late season duck hunts. Unbelievable desire to find game birds of any type. Just simply great hunting dogs.

They shouldn't be their own breed, that's for sure.
They roll in shit, fart, retrieve (almost to annoyance at times), love water, and everything else. Just like every other lab in the world.

JSDRIGGS if you read the top left hand corner of front page of www.wesslpointer.com you well see what THE LABRADOR RETRIEVER CLUB , INC Thinks of such breeders. Its like the sears catalog , pointie =good , pointing= better , POINTER=best ha ha hunt what you like an enjoy it.

 

[keskam]

JSDRIGGS if you read the top left hand corner of front page of www.wesslpointer.com you well see what THE LABRADOR RETRIEVER CLUB , INC Thinks of such breeders. Its like the sears catalog , pointie =good , pointing= better , POINTER=best ha ha hunt what you like an enjoy it.

The Labrador Retriever Club is the biggest joke in the dog world!!

The American labs were getting beat bigtime in the show ring by those british dogs so they changed the height standards so the British labs couldnt compete,
And AKC was in on this too. And this isnt the only thing they have done,,,,,,

Wesslpointer= blended dogs ??? or Mutt.

 

[morrismike]

I was remaining a bit more general. But what I was saying is for a lab or any breed to get to FT level a ton of effort is required. First you need to find a breeding that may produce a dog capable. Many times these pups cost I excess of 2500$. Now you need access to fields, ponds designed for FT training. Now add on a bird pen with ducks, pheasants, and chuckers. Next you will need stick men, remote retired gunners, a couple bird boy launchers or thunder launchers. Than hire or find a couple of qualified assistants 3 would be best. Finally your ready to have fun and start training. I think most guys train 5-6 days a week with a Field and yard session each day. With luck your pup has what it takes, if not you just trained a extremely excellent hunting companion. The work ethic and temperment required of both the dog and trainer is amazing.

Anyone who thinks FC/AFC are hyper has never sat in the gallery at a FT. Most of these dogs will nap in the holding blinds while waiting their turn. A derby dog named ammo always had to stretch at the line before she would run! Yes some FT breedings produce over revved dogs, but these dogs rarely excell so they don't get bred.

I have a 14 month old BLM that is by a FC/AFC x FC MH. He is sleeping at the foot of my hotel room bed right now. In about an hour he will be running against 42 other dogs. Temperamental he is not

I guess we have differing opinions as to what makes a good breeding and that is ok. But please don't insult what these dogs can do. Look up FT on entry express.com and find one near you. Wear some dark clothing bring a lawn chair and check it out. I bet you will be amazed by the work and temperment of these athletes

Steve

I apologize for taking a dig at lab FT'rs - it is more of a chessie owner's prejudice than anything else.

I own a pup from Chessie FT'rs but that's a little different than owning a pup from Lab FT'rs. I'm really not a fan of the quantity of electricity used in the lab FT game but to each his own. Most of those FT lab pups (just like chessie FT pups or other breeds) would be outstanding pheasant or quail (ducks too obviously) hunting with minimal training so this isn't a dig at the dogs just the reality that pressures from trialing, pet ownership, show ring, etc. are putting a lot of pressure on the breed and these genetic pools are rarely intermixing which ultimately creates separate breeds. The list of breeds that have been irreversably damaged by dogs shows is very long. In its own little way the extremes of FTing are not much better and create the same sort of problems.

 

[morrismike]

Here is a whole new type of pointing lab:

http://www.hybridretrievers.com/

They are definitely interesting dogs.

Hybrid vigor is a wondorous thing.

 

[Gatzby]

I apologize for taking a dig at lab FT'rs - it is more of a chessie owner's prejudice than anything else.

I own a pup from Chessie FT'rs but that's a little different than owning a pup from Lab FT'rs. I'm really not a fan of the quantity of electricity used in the lab FT game but to each his own. Most of those FT lab pups (just like chessie FT pups or other breeds) would be outstanding pheasant or quail (ducks too obviously) hunting with minimal training so this isn't a dig at the dogs just the reality that pressures from trialing, pet ownership, show ring, etc. are putting a lot of pressure on the breed and these genetic pools are rarely intermixing which ultimately creates separate breeds. The list of breeds that have been irreversably damaged by dogs shows is very long. In its own little way the extremes of FTing are not much better and create the same sort of problems.

I currantly am finishing/proofing TT with my pup. I went back through the last 12 training sessions (about 6 days) . I keep a log detailing all good/bad behaviors, corrections given, and a diagram of each set up ran for every training session. I gave a 4 low nick and a 4 med nick on a slow whistle sits during a TT session (when the 4 med didn't get results I didn't nag I upped the stim...problem solved). I gave a 6 low nick (big correction) for a complete blow off of a heel command. I told pup to heel as we walked by a bird drying rack and he pretty much gave me the finger. That is 3 nicks in 12 sessions! Granted much more stimulation is used during force to pile or water etc. But if a behavior is shaped solidly through attrition very little stimulation will be neceassary. I bet more electricity is used on opening day in SD by a bunch of uninformed hunters with untrained dogs than is used by pro trainers the rest of the year. And the real trainers get results from the collar not just a heel licking dog.

As for FT breedings damaging the integrity of the breed their maybe some truth. Torn ACL's are getting more commen and their appears to possibly be a genetic component.....Can this traced back to Lean Mac???? maybe, some people believe so. As for health clearances FT breeders are way ahead of the curve period. I believe the worst damage is being caused by the labs popularity with the general public and many breeders desire to cash in. All these fashionable new colors and traits with out a single concern as to wether the dog or bitch has god hips, eyes, elbows etc.

In all AKC hunt tests, AKC Field Trials, and HRC tests the dogs are required to run naked (no e collar). In juniors/started a flat buckle collar and lead is allowed in the blinds up to the line.

Steve

PS I am getting sick of this weather......

 

[keskam]

I currantly am finishing/proofing TT with my pup. I went back through the last 12 training sessions (about 6 days) . I keep a log detailing all good/bad behaviors, corrections given, and a diagram of each set up ran for every training session. I gave a 4 low nick and a 4 med nick on a slow whistle sits during a TT session (when the 4 med didn't get results I didn't nag I upped the stim...problem solved). I gave a 6 low nick (big correction) for a complete blow off of a heel command. I told pup to heel as we walked by a bird drying rack and he pretty much gave me the finger. That is 3 nicks in 12 sessions! Granted much more stimulation is used during force to pile or water etc. But if a behavior is shaped solidly through attrition very little stimulation will be neceassary. I bet more electricity is used on opening day in SD by a bunch of uninformed hunters with untrained dogs than is used by pro trainers the rest of the year. And the real trainers get results from the collar not just a heel licking dog.

As for FT breedings damaging the integrity of the breed their maybe some truth. Torn ACL's are getting more commen and their appears to possibly be a genetic component.....Can this traced back to Lean Mac???? maybe, some people believe so. As for health clearances FT breeders are way ahead of the curve period. I believe the worst damage is being caused by the labs popularity with the general public and many breeders desire to cash in. All these fashionable new colors and traits with out a single concern as to wether the dog or bitch has god hips, eyes, elbows etc.

In all AKC hunt tests, AKC Field Trials, and HRC tests the dogs are required to run naked (no e collar). In juniors/started a flat buckle collar and lead is allowed in the blinds up to the line.

Steve

PS I am getting sick of this weather......

Wouldnt you say the dogs are being asked to do alot more then they were 10 to 20 years ago.

Think about it? Do you think the FC AFC dogs in the 90s could compete with the dogs of today ? With the new training methods and quick corrections the dogs are so much farther ahead now and are pushed alot more now then then because of longer retrieves and blinds in Trials, Heck i run hunt tests and still run 200 yard marks and 300 yard blinds, just to know i have control that far away,,,,,,,

 

[Gatzby]

Wouldnt you say the dogs are being asked to do alot more then they were 10 to 20 years ago.

Think about it? Do you think the FC AFC dogs in the 90s could compete with the dogs of today ? With the new training methods and quick corrections the dogs are so much farther ahead now and are pushed alot more now then then because of longer retrieves and blinds in Trials, Heck i run hunt tests and still run 200 yard marks and 300 yard blinds, just to know i have control that far away,,,,,,,

I absolutely agree. It was that long ago when slingshots and pebbles were the only way to get a long range correction. Can you imagine trying to plink a running dog in a timely fashion and with proper intensity!

Heck hunt tests are getting WAY tougher to. I ran a junior test a few weeks ago under a experienced judge that was tough! The first mark on the water seris was from left to right angled back at about 45 deg. To get there from the line the dog had a 10 yard run to water, than a 15 yard swim to a small island (about 8 yds around) with heavy cover, than a 25 yd swim to shore, finally about 8-10 yds up the shore and down a small slope to the bird! The rumor was they scented the island as well. About 4 dog out of 35 failed! Without access to good training water most dogs wouldn't stand a chance! There are a lot of really good "meat dogs" out there that wouldn't stand a chance. Oh and they had decoys set at all water exit and entrances.