Whoa?

B

Byrdoglvr

Member
The "how much to whoa" thread has me wondering. Rather than intrude on that thread I thought I'd start my own. I have a GSP that has hunted two seasons. I've had 5 labs and two currently. Just to give you my dog background. She gets further out then I like. Say 40-50 yards. I'm able to bring her back with the "come" command but then returns right back to where she was. I hate commanding the entire time I'm hunting. She holds solid points unless the bird moves then she'll flush them. So I guess I'm looking for some feedback and training tips.

Thanks
 
A pointing dog is breed to range well outside of gun range, point and hold the birds until you walk front and flush the bird.

My setters can be several hundred yards out, pointing birds.

You are really trying to make the dog do something it is not breed to do, hunt like a flushing dog. It takes more work to develop a good pointing dog, but its worth it.
 
SetterNut said:
A pointing dog is breed to range well outside of gun range, point and hold the birds until you walk front and flush the bird.

My setters can be several hundred yards out, pointing birds.

You are really trying to make the dog do something it is not breed to do, hunt like a flushing dog. It takes more work to develop a good pointing dog, but its worth it.
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I have an English Setter and it doesn't bother me that he ranges because he holds his points until I get there and beyond. It is my understanding though that a GSP is supposed to be a medium ranging dog. So maybe that's what she's doing. It could be not holding the points that is frustrating me then. Like i said in my OP I'm used to hunting behind my labs. Looking for training tips in that area then. I do have pen birds if that could figure into training tips.
 
Setternut is exactly right.

You will need to train for steadiness to the level you are comfortable with. Most hunters like their pointing dogs at least steady to flush, in other words the dog should not move until the bird is in the air. You can take that further to steady to shot or all the way to shot and fall, it's entirely up to you.

Stop to flush is also very useful as birds that are not winded by the dog may flush wild (no fault of the dog). This prevents him from blowing out more birds that may be close.

Pigeons and launchers are the usual tool to accomplish all this. Having access to them or finding someone who can help you if you don't have the resources will be a big plus.
 
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Both parties involved here have given you some solid advice. I would also add that you shouldn't get too hung on the breed of dog for it range and more the dogs personality. I have a female GSP that will run as big as some EPs so breed really isn't the issue some lines within the breed are bigger runners and vice versa. I would also recommend maybe getting a couple of training books either at a local bookstore or online from either a Gundogs website or if you have access to a kindle you can download some. Training with Mo is top notch as well as training pointing dogs by Paul long. In the end if your dogs covering ground and not handling it's birds honestly the range is the least of your concerns.
 
HUNTIN4FUN said:
Both parties involved here have given you some solid advice. I would also add that you shouldn't get too hung on the breed of dog for it range and more the dogs personality. I have a female GSP that will run as big as some EPs so breed really isn't the issue some lines within the breed are bigger runners and vice versa. I would also recommend maybe getting a couple of training books either at a local bookstore or online from either a Gundogs website or if you have access to a kindle you can download some. Training with Mo is top notch as well as training pointing dogs by Paul long. In the end if your dogs covering ground and not handling it's birds honestly the range is the least of your concerns.
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What he said!!! There are any number of methods to reinforce whoa. It shouldn't be a command when the dog is finding the bird, the bird and dog should hold. Not every bird is going to do that. However, if the dog does, you will get additional opportunities on the bird by relocating. I use a check chord and flank hitch to reinforce whoa in controlled situations. You have to stay at it until the dog does it without rope or command. It can be good for both of you and really worth the time. You don't have to take it all the way to a finished situation, steady to flush will put a bunch of birds in the pouch! Range is dog specific. Within a litter you may see both extremes. As long as the dog stays in touch and stands his/her birds, it shouldn't be a big issue within reason. Of course hunting a 40 yard wide strip of cover with a dog that wants to be out 200, can be a problem. Most well bred dogs adjust in such situations. Also, training a dog to quarter will give you more control on it's range. My old Drifter female could be set like a clock. If I pipped her at 100 yards about 2 times, 100 yards would be her range all day. The next day I might be in cover where 200 was better, same story. Good luck and make sure you both enjoy the training together.
 
You might want to check out another training book titled "Hunt Close" by Jerome B. Robinson.
 
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so far the post have been pretty much right on. a couple of things, the whoa command is not a distance command, two different things. sounds like you think you have a distance problem, I don't know what kinda cover you are hunting but 40-50 yards on most days and most cover is too close, the most common distance quoted for that type of dog is more like 70-80 yds. heavy cover will shorten the distance, sparce cover will increase it. you have a pointing dog now, not a flusher, give it a break. the easiest thing to do esp. if you are by yourself is to constantly change your pattern so the dog has to keep turning to see where you are, that will help with the distance as it keeps them off guard. also understand if you are hunting wild pheasants, they don't much like dogs and the best dog in the world can't make a pheasant do something it doesn't want to do, like maybe sit, you have to learn whether the dog, after it finds a bird is busting it or the bird just has no time in it's life for the dog and leaves. good luck

cheers
 
If range is more the issue, you need to teach your dog to quarter and turn on whistle, hand signals, and body language. With pheasants, quiet is paramount so leave the voice out of it. Learn to trust the dog to work the cover at IT'S range and, as long as the dog is not responsible for birds in the air, let the dog do what it can with birds that often won't set for a dog. You'll never point them all. That's part of the fun. To me, the ones that get away are the memorable ones.
 
I followed the perfect start program with mine and it was simple and effective. Took them a bit to stand their birds but I think half a season and they had it down. They are steady to flush now. One steadied himself to shot as well. He loves to retrieve and found out if he waited he could get a mouth full of feathers as well. He is a pretty smart little fellow. The other one hasn't figured it out on his own and I'm not to concerned if he does or not. Steady to flush is good enough for me.
 
Some years ago I assisted in the training field with a friend training a GSP. He ranged about 50 yards. Didn't take many birds for him to become staunch and when we started killing birds over him he retrieved to hand. A natural. I would have loved to take that dog home to be mine.

On the flip side is a GSP owned by an acquaintance of mine. He's out 100 yards in the grouse woods. By the time you get to him on point, he's crept in and busted the bird. The guy isn't shooting much, as you can expect and I've got no desire to waste my time hunting with him.

It doesn't matter far your pointing dog ranges as long as he holds his point, allowing you to walk in an flush the bird. But a pointing dog that ranges out, doesn't hold point and flushes everything is useless as a bird dog.

If he's flushing before you get there to do it yourself and you shoot those birds, you're teaching him it's OK to not be staunch. If he flushes, don't shoot. Only shoot the birds he holds and you flush. That's hard for some people to do. I have a brother who I will not take with my young dog because he doesn't understand that concept and doesn't care. He just wants to shoot birds. Hunt alone until you get that dog staunch and then be selective on who you take with you, making sure they understand and are OK with your training goals. Once they have a season, or two under their collars, have shown they will hold points, I don't think it matters as much.

I had a setter some years ago that was seriously staunch. In SD we used a golden retriever to flush for us over her points. My current pup, is young and I still shoot only birds he holds and won't take him with people or other dogs who I feel will pressure him into not holding points.
 
Im a flusher guy so the first times I hunted with a pointer it drove me nuts! My buddy was training his Setter to be rock solid steady last year and there was a lot of rooster that did not get shot because the dog bumped them. Watching roosters fly is no fun:eek: but it paid off in spades later in the year when his dog would hold the point until the bird was flushed. Also just a thought but have you considered starting on grouse? They will hold and not run as much. My opinion pheasant just don't behave the best for a pointing dogs. Not to say they are not effective but pheasants don't play by the rules. And then again I own flusher so maybe I am way out of my element.:cheers:

 
Like I said in my earlier post, some guys don't understand what you're working to accomplish and can't hold back on birds a young dog will bust. I won't take those guys hunting when I'm in the early years with a young dog. But that one season, or part of one season, it takes to get him staunch is worth watching those busted birds fly off. For a the owner of a pointing dog it's part of the program. You either accept those terms the first year out, or don't get a pointing breed.

Pheasant don't often "behave", but a smart dog will figure it out. I've had young setters in their first season point, relocate, point, several times before pinning them down. That's just good breeding and a smart dog learnign on the fly. My last pup was in his first season at 1 year and 5 months when he worked a bird over 100 yards, pointing and relocating a running bird, until he finally made a wide sweep around and locked up facing me. Pinned the old rooster between he and me. I walked in to flush and nailed a cackling rooster with close to 1", sharp as hell, spurs. The guy hunting with me was a lab guy and didn't have a close as to what kind of job that young dog had just done.

I've had a lot of pheasants hold so tight you would think there wasn't really a bird there, with all the kicking around it took to get them to fly. To say a pheasant won't hold is just not true. I've hunted behind setters for 45 years and have shot a lot of roosters over solid points. My shooting percentage is also a lot better hunting with my setters than with my buddies labs/springers, because I'm closer to the bird when it takes flight.

Ruffed grouse also run. They're masters at putting some blocking cover between you and them before busting out. A good pair of hunters that work well together helps. Pay attention to the wind and be aware of the blocking cover [normally balsam fir in the aspen understory here], make a pincer movement with one guy going around each side, gives one a decent chance.
 
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