niceshot
New member
Great point. Another good reason to use plated shot.
What is your take on the ever increasing non toxic shot requirments?
- Thread starter onpoint
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niceshot
New member
I think that sums up what the vast majority of pheasant hunters think, and you are probably right, but it is very hard to prove a negative. The effects of lead poisoning can be subtle, and who of us can claim to be completely normal. Radiologists see shot in the GI tract quite frequently, so I don't think you have to be a nut case to have some legitimate questions.
onpoint
Active member
Sorry, I would find it rather ironic that a GI track would keep and hold lead pellets. They should go through your system just like any other object, such as seed's and nuts(coin's). Just look in your poop(did I just say poop? LOL).
If you meant pellet, as in one. I would say there's chance one pellet was on it's way through a person's system at the time of the CT scan. If a person had multiple pellet's in one's system. I would question just what the heck Leroy was eating. Does he not feel them in his mouth when he's chewing? LOL
By the way, check out this on CT scans http://www.twinstatesoutdoors.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=5980 You might want to limit them
If you meant pellet, as in one. I would say there's chance one pellet was on it's way through a person's system at the time of the CT scan. If a person had multiple pellet's in one's system. I would question just what the heck Leroy was eating. Does he not feel them in his mouth when he's chewing? LOL
By the way, check out this on CT scans http://www.twinstatesoutdoors.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=5980 You might want to limit them
tmrichardson
Banned
My observations over the years have led me to believe that the lead shot issue is like many other issues--most people are going to believe what they want to believe--and look for sources that support their belief while ignoring others.
There's been a wealth of info from unbiased sources on lead impacts over the years. Lead is a toxic poison that at certain levels creates irreparable harm, there is not way to reasonably dispute that fact.
There's no way to dispute it's impact on waterfowl and species that eat waterfowl either. Loons and swans can be included there in addition to ducks and geese.
Upland game is a bit trickier perhaps, but given this is a pheasant forum, with a few exceptions perhaps I doubt that there are many of us who has not occasionally--even frequently--shot a load of shot over water--or seasonably flooded wetlands that might be dry in the fall.
One thing I don't see anyone recognizing is how much the price of quality steel shot loads has changed in comparison with the same in lead.
This ought to hit home for pheasant hunters in particular. As an example, Fiocchi golden pheasant lead loads are $15 to $18 a box nearly everywhere I have gone recently. Kent Fast Steel loads are $11 to $15.
If you look around a bit--and shoot a 12 gauge or 20 with 3" chamber--price is no longer a reason not to switch to steel.
The big game issue came up suddenly and was discovered by a guy with an admitted agenda and affiliation that clearly wasn't too keen on use of lead.
Unfortunately, as happens on occasion--despite his bias, he was right. Continued work has proven that lead bullets commonly fragment and that light coatings of copper do nothing to change that (there's some reason to believe those with a small lead core and heavy lead or other alloy nose and covering may be less of a problem). And that the fragments often fly dramatically far from the wound channel, negating any thought that a good job of tossing out damaged areas along the wound channel will eliminate the problem.
I'm not all that worried for myself or older women past child bearing age, but kids and pregnant women--well the evidence is more than a bit disconcerting.
There are some organizations with close ties to the shooting industry--NSSF for example--that are clearly advocating not for the truth but for the selfish interests of an industry that isn't ready to change yet.
This demonstration may be of interest to big game hunters with an open mind--be sure to click on the slide show and turn up the volume on your computer:
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/index.html
There's been a wealth of info from unbiased sources on lead impacts over the years. Lead is a toxic poison that at certain levels creates irreparable harm, there is not way to reasonably dispute that fact.
There's no way to dispute it's impact on waterfowl and species that eat waterfowl either. Loons and swans can be included there in addition to ducks and geese.
Upland game is a bit trickier perhaps, but given this is a pheasant forum, with a few exceptions perhaps I doubt that there are many of us who has not occasionally--even frequently--shot a load of shot over water--or seasonably flooded wetlands that might be dry in the fall.
One thing I don't see anyone recognizing is how much the price of quality steel shot loads has changed in comparison with the same in lead.
This ought to hit home for pheasant hunters in particular. As an example, Fiocchi golden pheasant lead loads are $15 to $18 a box nearly everywhere I have gone recently. Kent Fast Steel loads are $11 to $15.
If you look around a bit--and shoot a 12 gauge or 20 with 3" chamber--price is no longer a reason not to switch to steel.
The big game issue came up suddenly and was discovered by a guy with an admitted agenda and affiliation that clearly wasn't too keen on use of lead.
Unfortunately, as happens on occasion--despite his bias, he was right. Continued work has proven that lead bullets commonly fragment and that light coatings of copper do nothing to change that (there's some reason to believe those with a small lead core and heavy lead or other alloy nose and covering may be less of a problem). And that the fragments often fly dramatically far from the wound channel, negating any thought that a good job of tossing out damaged areas along the wound channel will eliminate the problem.
I'm not all that worried for myself or older women past child bearing age, but kids and pregnant women--well the evidence is more than a bit disconcerting.
There are some organizations with close ties to the shooting industry--NSSF for example--that are clearly advocating not for the truth but for the selfish interests of an industry that isn't ready to change yet.
This demonstration may be of interest to big game hunters with an open mind--be sure to click on the slide show and turn up the volume on your computer:
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/index.html
winchester21
New member
Having shot numerous big game animals, I simply cannot agree with any presumption that a person with adequate vision would not be able to identify fragmented wound channels. They are very obvious.
I do believe however, that bullet fragments do occasionally end up in ground meat because of hunters who take carcasses to meat processors where scrap meat may not be properly inspected prior to being dumped into a hopper grinder for sausage/burger.
I do believe however, that bullet fragments do occasionally end up in ground meat because of hunters who take carcasses to meat processors where scrap meat may not be properly inspected prior to being dumped into a hopper grinder for sausage/burger.
onpoint
Active member
Shot shell's, bird hunting and hunting big game with a rifle are two different animals. I have shot Barns X bullets since they came out(all copper bullet). This year I shot two shells and killed two deer. How many of you plan on shooting two shells well Pheasant hunting?
Steel don't work in any of my Win. model 12's or Belgium Browning A5's or several other of my fixed choke guns. All these guns will become obsolete in one stroke of a pen. I can't afford near $5.00 per shell for Prem. lead substitutes. I applaud Federal Cartridge and the NRA for successfully fighting the move by the MCF & the DNR to implement mandatory non toxic shot state wide for all game birds.
Quote
"Lead Shot Phase Out
The MCF recommitted the organization to the elimination of the use of toxic shot (lead) for upland game hunting within three to five years statewide—starting with Minnesota Wildlife Management Areas. The Legislature considered a DNR plan to ban lead shot on WMA’s this session. It is currently banned over water. The DNR task force, that included Gordie Meyer, made similar recommendations. The phase out language made it all the way to a conference committee but was dropped there due to opposition from Federal Cartridge and the National Rifle Association. The MCF and others will try again this year.
http://www.mncf.org/main/ these are the folks fighting to end the use of lead shot, along with the MN. DNR
It's coming and they are being quite about it..trying to sneak it in under the wire. Best call your representative or your classic pheasant hunting gun will be nothing but a wall hanger
Steel don't work in any of my Win. model 12's or Belgium Browning A5's or several other of my fixed choke guns. All these guns will become obsolete in one stroke of a pen. I can't afford near $5.00 per shell for Prem. lead substitutes. I applaud Federal Cartridge and the NRA for successfully fighting the move by the MCF & the DNR to implement mandatory non toxic shot state wide for all game birds.
Quote
"Lead Shot Phase Out
The MCF recommitted the organization to the elimination of the use of toxic shot (lead) for upland game hunting within three to five years statewide—starting with Minnesota Wildlife Management Areas. The Legislature considered a DNR plan to ban lead shot on WMA’s this session. It is currently banned over water. The DNR task force, that included Gordie Meyer, made similar recommendations. The phase out language made it all the way to a conference committee but was dropped there due to opposition from Federal Cartridge and the National Rifle Association. The MCF and others will try again this year.
http://www.mncf.org/main/ these are the folks fighting to end the use of lead shot, along with the MN. DNR
It's coming and they are being quite about it..trying to sneak it in under the wire. Best call your representative or your classic pheasant hunting gun will be nothing but a wall hanger
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TMRichardson, your comments are thoughtful. Cost of shells is not an issue. We all agree that lead is toxic. We all agree that lead shot is harmful to other wildlife. Pheasant hunters shoot over water all the time If we are down to a possible negative impact on old guns, I believe our sport is much better served by taking the stongest position for the enviroment and human health. We have much bigger battles to fight in the legislative arena than this one.
onpoint
Active member
Older fixed choke guns can not shoot steel shot without damaging the barrel. Specially older guns with thin wall barrels. My fixed choke Browning Citori Super Light's barrels are so thin that it can not have choke tubes installed. The gun would be relegated to shooting Bismuth or similar type shells. For me, it would become a wall hanger. The price of these fixed choke guns will drop to near nothing. A gun of today worth $1-$2,000 or more, would become a couple hundred dollar gun. If you could even sell it.
If the NRA and Federal cartridge is fighting it, there is merit to it
Quote Ben123
"Cost of shells is not an issue. "
______________________________
Really? maybe for you. It's obvious you care little about the people who continue to be priced out of the sport, from $35.00 to $50.00 for 10 shells. That's out of my price range and if you think I'm the only person to draw the line, your mistaken. Then when the sport has zippo voice to carry to Washington with our elected. You too will be legislated out of hunting. Just ask our allies across the Atlantic. Some people give up their rights and freedoms WAY too easy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkS2...695B5A894&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3
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tmrichardson
Banned
Sloth it's not as simple as onpoint suggests as some older guns--with chokes opened up--can handle steel, and some have sufficient barrel strength to handle it regardless of choke.
But for guns that are a problem, hard steel or some (not all) of the other non-toxic alternatives will not compress like lead will when run through a choked gun. Almost all modern guns going back some years have barrels of sufficient strength to handle steel and other non-tox shot. Some older guns do not, and their barrels can bulge or be damaged by shooting hardened shot through them.
I've seen some spendy ammo but have never seen $50 for ten shell loads! $30 yes, but never 50! Must be gold in them? Gold makes for soft shot, right?
But for guns that are a problem, hard steel or some (not all) of the other non-toxic alternatives will not compress like lead will when run through a choked gun. Almost all modern guns going back some years have barrels of sufficient strength to handle steel and other non-tox shot. Some older guns do not, and their barrels can bulge or be damaged by shooting hardened shot through them.
I've seen some spendy ammo but have never seen $50 for ten shell loads! $30 yes, but never 50! Must be gold in them? Gold makes for soft shot, right?
onpoint
Active member
How about 67.97?
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/...ge-2-3-4-1-1-16-oz.aspx?a=545748&kwtid=306156
and you tell me which gun Manf. says it's safe to shoot steel through their fixed choke guns?
Please post a link to the Manf. stating this
Also, I'll give ya the $30.00 a box. that's the cheapest you will find any. That's $75.00 per 25 and that's going to do what to hunting? Drive people away. A great plan!
onpoint
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/...ge-2-3-4-1-1-16-oz.aspx?a=545748&kwtid=306156
and you tell me which gun Manf. says it's safe to shoot steel through their fixed choke guns?
Please post a link to the Manf. stating this
Also, I'll give ya the $30.00 a box. that's the cheapest you will find any. That's $75.00 per 25 and that's going to do what to hunting? Drive people away. A great plan!
onpoint
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Thanks for the 411 guys. I guess I don't really buy the expense argument because price is usually pretty fluid and with a change in policy will also come a change in price based on new demand for a product. T.V.'s is a great example of this.
The idea that some of our guns no matter how small the number will become obsolete worries me a little but I'm sure most hunters have in their arsenal a gun that can fire steel shot so I don't think it will completely drive out hunters. It sucks that some of your guns won't be useful but sometimes that's life... everything becomes somewhat obsolete after a while anyways.
Enviromentally I can't really argue that lead is a toxin to already fragile ecosystems so anything that we can do to preserve them I'm all for! It may be painful at first for some but in the long run I feel like it's probably the best option. Just my opinion for what it's worth... obviously not much.
The idea that some of our guns no matter how small the number will become obsolete worries me a little but I'm sure most hunters have in their arsenal a gun that can fire steel shot so I don't think it will completely drive out hunters. It sucks that some of your guns won't be useful but sometimes that's life... everything becomes somewhat obsolete after a while anyways.
Enviromentally I can't really argue that lead is a toxin to already fragile ecosystems so anything that we can do to preserve them I'm all for! It may be painful at first for some but in the long run I feel like it's probably the best option. Just my opinion for what it's worth... obviously not much.
jnormanh
New member
There's this, from the article you posted -
Then what about the issue of steel shot damaging guns? All steel shot is contained in plastic wads to protect barrel walls from scratching or wear. "There is no longer any issue concerning bore erosion as long as any pellet type harder than lead is contained in a properly designed shotcup system," explains Tom Roster of CONSEP, the internationally active Cooperative North American Shotgunning Education Program. "As far as slight bulging 'damage' to chokes or choke tubes is concerned," Roster says, "only steel shot, cheap steel, tungsten-iron shot, and Hevi-Shot are issues. Even here the so-called damage is either cosmetic or avoidable by proper use of the gun." The risk of this barrel expansion, or ring bulge, is larger with increased tightness of the choke, increased shot size, use of very old or light-barreled guns, and use of High Performance Shot (which increases shot velocity).
onpoint
Active member
Go ahead shoot some steel though your fixed choke doubles or older classic guns that your fathers and grandfathers carried. Wreck'em I won't wreck mine. Maybe try going to a gun site and do some asking before inserting foot. www.shotgunworld.com a host of knowledgeable gun experts frequent the site.
Mean while, I will go with the NRA and other groups and continue to fight such a measure. Maybe they should concentrate on much larger toxin problems, like farm chemical run off, feed lot pollution, Ind waste, Exc. Lead shot doesn't even make a blip on the radar screen but for some that just want the fuzzy warm feeling knowing they are joining hands with the flower sniffers and stopping the dreaded lead shot poisoning that is front page in the pollution war.
onpoint
Mean while, I will go with the NRA and other groups and continue to fight such a measure. Maybe they should concentrate on much larger toxin problems, like farm chemical run off, feed lot pollution, Ind waste, Exc. Lead shot doesn't even make a blip on the radar screen but for some that just want the fuzzy warm feeling knowing they are joining hands with the flower sniffers and stopping the dreaded lead shot poisoning that is front page in the pollution war.
onpoint
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tmrichardson
Banned
Well things get a bit complicated here.
Roster's assertion relies on a key application not mentioned in the article cited--that those shooting non-toxic/hard ammo like steel do so through open chokes. Modified at most, nothing tighter. Guns with tighter fixed chokes can have some problems and Tom will tell you that.
Onpoint's point that most manufacturers won't tell you using non-tox is OK is accurate too, but that's not necessarily proof that it's a serious problem.
Lawyer's. Read any modern gun manual these days and you'd think it dangerous to take the thing out of the box it came in, let alone fire it.
Roster's assertion relies on a key application not mentioned in the article cited--that those shooting non-toxic/hard ammo like steel do so through open chokes. Modified at most, nothing tighter. Guns with tighter fixed chokes can have some problems and Tom will tell you that.
Onpoint's point that most manufacturers won't tell you using non-tox is OK is accurate too, but that's not necessarily proof that it's a serious problem.
Lawyer's. Read any modern gun manual these days and you'd think it dangerous to take the thing out of the box it came in, let alone fire it.
onpoint
Active member
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=198178
Quote
"I have seen IC, Skeet, M & F choked Belgium A5 barrels damaged by steel and Hevishot. In fact, I made quite alot of money having ruined A5 barrels recycled with Poly-Chokes. Most of those barrels were purchased for less that $50.
I hesitate to tell anyone how to use his gun. However, NIB A5 barrels can run as much as $1400 for an Invector VR Sweet Sixteen and are regularly selling in the $300-$700 range. If you can afford that price, shoot away!
JMHO, of course.
Quote
"I have seen IC, Skeet, M & F choked Belgium A5 barrels damaged by steel and Hevishot. In fact, I made quite alot of money having ruined A5 barrels recycled with Poly-Chokes. Most of those barrels were purchased for less that $50.
I hesitate to tell anyone how to use his gun. However, NIB A5 barrels can run as much as $1400 for an Invector VR Sweet Sixteen and are regularly selling in the $300-$700 range. If you can afford that price, shoot away!
JMHO, of course.
Honestly I think this debate is a bit silly.
Steel does not have the knockdown power compared to lead shot. However the state requires non toxic shot to be used in the walk in areas. So I just buy the Fiocchi Golden Pheasant and it does the job. There are other people who use the land as well during other parts of the year, and their opinion matters as well. If you have to use non toxic shot as a compramise then so be it.
Now if your on private property and the owner allows lead, then go for it.
Steel does not have the knockdown power compared to lead shot. However the state requires non toxic shot to be used in the walk in areas. So I just buy the Fiocchi Golden Pheasant and it does the job. There are other people who use the land as well during other parts of the year, and their opinion matters as well. If you have to use non toxic shot as a compramise then so be it.
Now if your on private property and the owner allows lead, then go for it.
tmrichardson
Banned
Well, yes, and no. If you take a single lead #4 pellet at 1300 fps and compare it to a single steel pellet at 1300 fps, then yes the energy imparted by the SINGLE lead pellet will be higher.
But it's just not that simple. Take an ounce of lead pellets and compare them to an ounce of steel. There will be more pellets in the steel ounce than the lead.
Then look at the velocity much of the factory steel ammo is loaded to in comparison to the velocity of lead ammo. Many steel loads are sent along at a pretty fast speed, higher than lead loads. Speed plays a factor in energy delivered, it's a basic fact of physics that ammo manufacturers have been applying for many years now (they didn't when steel first came out so if that is only experience with steel shot, try it again with modern ammo).
Then look at how individual pellets respond to choke as they go through the barrel. Lead will deform, steel won't. The result--tighter, more uniform patterns with steel when compared to lead.
So there are many factors in play that make steel much better than some think. I've shot pheasants with steel better for some years now than lead loads, out of the same guns. I have always felt the better patterns I get shooting steel are a big part of that. I watch more birds fly away wounded when shooting lead than steel. The only handicap I've found shooting steel at pheasants is range. 35 yard plus shots with my 20 and 40+ with my 12 get more iffy with steel than lead. But even that has to be tempered by the fact I don't shoot as well at that range as I do on closer shots anyway--whether lead or steel--and I can and do routinely hold off on them while still getting plenty of chances to shoot a limit on many days.
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