Under choked or over choked?

I once had an ancient Merkel OU that had straight cylinder in the lower barrel. I was concerned about that cylinder barrel but it worked much better than I thought it would. I had been fringing closer birds with a tighter choke and the birds shot with that cylinder barrel were coming down dead. I think many hunters use too much choke.
 
Windshooter said:
I once had an ancient Merkel OU that had straight cylinder in the lower barrel. I was concerned about that cylinder barrel but it worked much better than I thought it would. I had been fringing closer birds with a tighter choke and the birds shot with that cylinder barrel were coming down dead. I think many hunters use too much choke.
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When I started using improved cylinder in my shotguns, I started getting a lot more peasants. I also use full choke in these old Browning guns. They don't have screw in chokes in the '50s.
 
Plannerman said:
Fantastic ammo IMO, been shooting #5s out of Franchi Instinct IC/M for about 5 years.
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I bought a case of 20 gauge 3" 6 shot because they were on sale. I'll buy again!
Don't feel like I need 3", but then I convince myself that it's better to have and not need than need and not have!
My confidence did grow with these, and I've had some really good and surprising long shot kills. The confidence continues when I have had more recoveries than I should have had on cripples (thanks to an excellent marking and tracking hunting companion.) I think I've only lost 3 cripples all year that I blame on shooting too far away. I've had that twice that many close birds that were lost due to heavy cover when the dog didn't see the bird down and/or poor shot placement.
I hate losing any birds...
 
If you are disciplined to not take shots over 30-35 yards, I/C is your friend. It won't blow up the birds like the tighter chokes. If you take shots longer than 35 yards, or let close up birds get out farther before shooting, a LM or MOD would be better. If you've ever shot patterns at 50 yards or more, you quickly see why birds are missed or crippled. My older brothers have always shot full chokes, but never take close shots. Like riding a clays target till it gets where you are comfortable shooting it.
 
westksbowhunter said:
How many of you pattern your chokes and shells? I pattern everything at 30 yds with both factory and aftermarket chokes. I also shim accordingly. Out of my 20 gauge Montefeltro, a Briley LM throw the best pattern, 60/40 and puts the most pellets in a 30 inch circle and a very evenly spread pattern. #5 's at 1300 fps shoot the best. The factory chokes don't even come close. Out of the M2 a Modified Briley throws the best pattern and I had to go through a lot shimming with that gun with the higher rib. The Browning Maxus II likes 6's and had Browning give me 2 extra recoil pads to find the right LOP. They do that for free if you call them after buying a new gun. I tune my guns just like I tune arrows to my traditional bows. It makes a huge difference and puts more birds in the bad than just guessing. I have lost one cripple this year. Every bird I have put in the bag has been stone cold dead.
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Here are a few of my pattern numbers from 20- and 12-gauge lead loads, that I’ve shot pheasants with, to give you an idea of the kind of performance you might get from similar loads and chokes.

Patterns from 20- and 12-gauge Browning Citoris with 28" Invector-plus barrels and Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot inscribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

20 GA 2 ¾” RELOAD (BLUE DOT)
1 oz #6 lead (233 pellets) @ 1200 fps
30 YARDS – SK / pattern 147 (63%)
30 YARDS – IC / pattern 168 (72%)
30 YARDS – M / pattern 200 (86%)

40 YARDS – M / pattern 146 (63%)
40 YARDS – IM / pattern 163 (70%)

20 GA 3" RELOAD (BLUE DOT)
1 1/8 oz #5 lead (190 pellets) @ 1200 fps
30 YARDS – SK / pattern 140 (74%)
30 YARDS – IC / pattern 150 (80%)

40 YARDS – M / pattern 138 (73%)
40 YARDS – IM / pattern 147 (77%)

12 GA 2 ¾” RELOAD (GREEN DOT)
1 1/8 oz #6 lead (267 pellets) @ 1225 fps
30 YARDS – CYL / pattern 141 (55%)
30 YARDS – SK / pattern 171 (69%)
30 YARDS – IC / pattern 211 (79%)

40 YARDS – LM / pattern 173 (65%)
40 YARDS – M / pattern 182 (68%)
40 YARDS – IM / pattern 195 (73%)

12 GA 2 ¾” RELOAD (UNIQUE)
1 1/4 oz #5 lead (210 pellets) @ 1225 fps
30 YARDS – CYL / pattern 125 (60%)
30 YARDS – SK / pattern 145 (69%)
30 YARDS – IC / pattern 177 (84%)

40 YARDS – LM / pattern 155 (74%)
40 YARDS – M / pattern 155 (74%)
40 YARDS – IM / pattern 174 (83%)

50 YARDS – IM / pattern 125 (60%)

Hope this helps, good luck!
 
9 times out of 10 its over choked.


I had to edit this. That 9/10 is a guess. In over 40 years of hunting, many teaching and instructing I can honestly say I never once saw anyone under choked
 
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Bowguy said:
9 times out of 10 its over choked.


I had to edit this. That 9/10 is a guess. In over 40 years of hunting, many teaching and instructing I can honestly say I never once saw anyone under choked
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This is why I asked the question to begin with. I agree. I think I typically over choke thinking “I’ll need it for those long shots.” And then I never take any of those “long” shots. The only time I’ve ever felt under choked was last season when I took a 20 ga to SD. I was using F over M choke and had someone tell me to go with F over IM. I thought IM was too tight for the 20 but I busted the next 3 birds hard after switching and now I’m not so sure. But I started with IM for my 16 and it wasn’t until I went to M that I was really scoring and I think I could go to LM for most of the hunting we are doing and still be fine. I’m patterning that now to see.
 
For something like 40 years all I ever used was a win 101 20 ga fixed choke improved, modified. It was and still is all you ever need for upland. It needs to fit you so you can shoot instinctively. The real bonus is the ammunition is so much better today. The shot, wads, all do a better job. I have several different guns now. One for blocking, another for ditch hunting, another if quail are in the mix and so on.
 
With ammunition & choke manufacturers touting 80% patterns & all the pictures of turkey/duck silhouettes just riddled with holes, it seems reasonable that many think tight patterns are important. They usually aren't. But it's important to put enough pellets in a bird to hit vitals & break important bones. Truthfully, that doesn't take very many. I clean lots of pheasants that got shot "pretty hard" that only took 4 or 5 hits. Much easier to achieve adequate pattern density (regardless of choke) by knowing the effective range of your shells & being experienced enough to accurately judge "in range" or "too far". Many people either think 60+ yds is an appropriate shot or simply can't judge when a bird is out of range. Also, many people don't use shot large enough to penetrate at the ranges they like to shoot. Choose shot that'll penetrate at the extent of your intended range. There's no sense taking a shot if your pellets can't seal the deal. Nothing wrong with a little larger pellets on the closer shots.
 
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Obi_Wan said:
This is why I asked the question to begin with. I agree. I think I typically over choke thinking “I’ll need it for those long shots.” And then I never take any of those “long” shots. The only time I’ve ever felt under choked was last season when I took a 20 ga to SD. I was using F over M choke and had someone tell me to go with F over IM. I thought IM was too tight for the 20 but I busted the next 3 birds hard after switching and now I’m not so sure. But I started with IM for my 16 and it wasn’t until I went to M that I was really scoring and I think I could go to LM for most of the hunting we are doing and still be fine. I’m patterning that now to see.
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It may be plausible that the chokes didn't have anything to do with it. I remember when screw in chokes became a thing. I would see guys on the firing line at the trap club have a bad round or two. Then head for the truck to change chokes. I've heard guys say their x choke is no good without ever patterning it. Also, most of the serious skeet shooters would never shoot anything but skeet chokes. It's kind of like the pro bass fisherman touting this rod or that for this type of fishing. Truth is that bass or pheasant don't care what choke your shooting. It's me and knowing my gun's range. Yes, a 7'6 heavy rod might get a few more big ones in the boat. And yes, a skeet choke might bust a few more clays than a mod. on the skeet range but my lively hood doesn't depend on how many bass or birds are in the bag. So, rods and chokes and gauges are kind of irrelevant as long as you know your guns range and don't vary. BUT, on a given day and IF I'm on my game, and IF I get the same or close to the same shots. I'm going kill more birds than the guy with the imp. cyl. because I can consistently drop birds at 40+yards. Try that with an imp. cyl. and you better have a good dog. I know that's a lot of ifs, but I'm always over choked and I admit it.
 
40 yards is a long shot. It's especially a long shot in pheasant cover. Sometime, stand in typical pheasant cover, have someone pace off 40 yards from you and see what that really looks like.

That being said, I will take longer shots under two circumstances. One, when a bird is hit a closer range but continues to fly. Two, when a bird is flying over a plowed field, especially if it is a crossing rather than a going away shot.

Most pheasants and other upland birds are killed a distances less than 35 yards. IC to modified chokes are most useful for any shot type.
 
birddude said:
It may be plausible that the chokes didn't have anything to do with it. I remember when screw in chokes became a thing. I would see guys on the firing line at the trap club have a bad round or two. Then head for the truck to change chokes. I've heard guys say their x choke is no good without ever patterning it. Also, most of the serious skeet shooters would never shoot anything but skeet chokes. It's kind of like the pro bass fisherman touting this rod or that for this type of fishing. Truth is that bass or pheasant don't care what choke your shooting. It's me and knowing my gun's range. Yes, a 7'6 heavy rod might get a few more big ones in the boat. And yes, a skeet choke might bust a few more clays than a mod. on the skeet range but my lively hood doesn't depend on how many bass or birds are in the bag. So, rods and chokes and gauges are kind of irrelevant as long as you know your guns range and don't vary. BUT, on a given day and IF I'm on my game, and IF I get the same or close to the same shots. I'm going kill more birds than the guy with the imp. cyl. because I can consistently drop birds at 40+yards. Try that with an imp. cyl. and you better have a good dog. I know that's a lot of ifs, but I'm always over choked and I admit it.
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I don’t disagree with any of this. I also think I have used bass rods that were to heavy of an action for many years but that’s another topic.

I personally try to limit my shots to 40 yards. Its like traditional bow hunting to me. Can I hit the vitals on a deer at 60 yards with my longbow? I can when target shooting but it isn’t consistent. If I add in the stress and excitement of a hunting situation, I know I can’t do it predictably enough to take the chance. So unless its a situation like John mentioned above, I’m letting those long shots go. When my BIL and I patterned our shotguns recently, we paced off 40 yards and he was surprised at how far that looked to the target. When we hunted Kansas without a dog, I’d say 35-40 yard shots were more the norm. In SD with the dogs, I’d say 25-30 is more the norm with some 40 yarders mixed in.

I know, as you said, IF I’m on my game, I can make the shot, but in my mind I wonder why risk it? Not that its wrong. Its just wrong for me.
 
Lots of factors go into making an ethical shot once you pick a species.

Skill, equipment, ammunition and distance are the major ones. Any combination of those is capable of making a clean kill and any of them are susceptible to missing or wounding and being unable to harvest the bird.

Once you step into the field the only variable you have control over is the shot you take, or don’t take. Any combination can be appropriate or not from one flush to another, you can’t be prepared for every shot you are presented, it’s not shooting clays.

Every hunter’s ideal combination could be different. For me my skill is probably the limiting variable, I’m also not as quick as some to get a shot off. I have an aversion to wounding birds so my shots are going to be medium range with a tight choke. I’m not fast enough to get that 20 yard shot and I don’t take those 40 yard shots.

We’ve all done it but the worst thing I see is that “yip” a bird makes when hit by a pellet or two and doesn’t even slow down. Not enough pellets either from too far, too open a choke, pellet size or skill issue not centering the pattern.

For me, medium range shots, modified choke (or full) #4 lead and I either miss or they drop, I seldom see that “yip”. Yes, I destroy some meat on occasion but the bird has already been taken and counted towards my limit so I really don’t have an issue with it.

TLDNR: shoot what you have confidence in.

Edit: I should have said “the right combination” not “any combination”.
 
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