Thinking of Novemeber??

I quail hunted SE Kansas in the mid 70s through the early 90s and I bet if you looked at an overhead view of that area in the mid 70s and one now the landscape would be almost unrecognizable due to all the trees and scrub brush that the entire area has now. I remember the 70s down there and the quail hunting was outstanding.
 
duckn66 said:
I quail hunted SE Kansas in the mid 70s through the early 90s and I bet if you looked at an overhead view of that area in the mid 70s and one now the landscape would be almost unrecognizable due to all the trees and scrub brush that the entire area has now. I remember the 70s down there and the quail hunting was outstanding.
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I don't recall the exact numbers, but when I heard them, it was something like a 30% increase since 1980 and that's been a few years. Add in Fescue and additional tillage and a lot of quail lost their homes.
 
I can take you to where I quail hunted as a kid and most of the waterways and hedgerows are gone. Used to be a farmer around here that would complain about low quail numbers and thought the season would be closed. He would be telling you this from the seat of his dozer as he pushed out another hedge row.

The green glacier of cedars is a whole can of worms in itself.
 
Prairie Drifter said:
Farming the ditch, removing shelter belts, farming low producing soils and the list goes on, would be both more profitable and more productive for wildlife if put in field borders or some type of continuous CRP.
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Kansas was awarded an additional
13,000 acres of Lesser Prairie Chicken CRP
10,000 acres of Upland Game bird CRP
10,000 acres of Migratory bird CRP for Playas (NEW PRACTICE)

Approximatley 15,000 acres of quail buffers CRP are still availabe that can be used along edges of fields or in pivot corners.

These are all continous practices (First come first serve acres not competitive like general CRP). With national caps ever reducing the amount of acres available to us in Kansas it's time to get smart about where and how we use our grass, a little bit can go a long way!!!
 
Best year ever for quail at the Ponderosa. The 60's still remain the best for pheasant here(end of Soil Bank days). Lesser prairie chicken are doing good. The turkey are doing great and something not here when I was a kid. Deer were not here when I was a kid either. Their numbers are really down, but coming back from highs a few years back. A few decent shooters and a good number of up and comers on the trail cams.

All in all it has been a blessed year at the Ponderosa for the critters.
 
KDWPT Small Game Program said:
http://ksoutdoors.com/Services/Private-Landowner-Assistance/Wildlife-Biologists

If you click on your county in the map the contact information for your local biologist should appear.
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Thanks for posting that info. I got an immediate response from the biologist in my area, and look forward to getting his ideas and suggestions. I'm hoping he can break down multiple issues and come up with a step-by-step plan to help me get my land looking the way I want it to.
 
Hey KDWPT Small Game Program,

Add me to the list of people that found the information at your link incredibly helpful! I am going to contact my biologist tomorrow.

Thanks,
Rod


On a side note, I have been doing internet searches for some of that type of information for the past week. (Using Bing as my search engine.) I never got any links to that good information in the KDWPT Practices Descriptions area.

I don't know, maybe "paid" content is drowning out everything else on the internet. If you do have a suggestion box for the person in your office that handles this sort of thing, please let them know I could only find all of their good information after I knew where to look.
 
Met with the biologist this afternoon. It was a good and worthwhile experience. I would highly recommend it to anyone thinking about a habitat project. I told him about my goals for the property, we walked it together, and he came back with a clear plan of attack. :thumbsup:
 
Prairie Drifter said:
I think that they were quite ordinary for the time. With the advent of agri-chemicals and larger equipment, things started in the downhill slide. Add to that exotic species like brome and fescue coming into vogue and the expansion of woodlands and the "feed the world" ag expansion, and here we are.
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I grew up on a farm in NW Missouri, we still own it. It is still covered with hedgerows, corn, beans, and lots of native prairie grass draws just like it had in the 1970's. This could all be coincidence, but when I was growing up there weren't many hawks, only saw about 2 eagles in 25 years. In 1972, DDT was banned, now there are hawks overlooking every field, I can drive an hour this time of year and see 8-10 bald eagles. I know the eagles don't catch quail, but the smaller, faster hawks do. Our farm hasn't changed as far as food or cover, but there are probably 20% of what the quail population. I've had conservation agents stand in our yard and tell me it's cover! I don't know the answer, but it ain't the whole story.
 
I hear what you're saying and it's not an uncommon comment. Here's my story.

My family bought a farm in Greenwood county in the early 90s. At that time the land was used as grazing and, where possible, to grow crops. The grass was all native warm season grasses. Tenants were doing the grazing and the farming. The quail hunting was pretty good. In order to avoid the hassle of maintaining fences and the mess of cattle regularly getting into the yard around the house, we converted the grazing land to hay production.

There was one particular tract that, for a variety of reasons, could not be hayed. It was maybe 10 acres, had a seasonal creek running through it, and was bordered by crop ground on two sides and "yard" on another. When we first bought the place there were normally 4-5 coveys on this small tract.

Fast forward twenty years and there are NO quail on this piece and very few overall. We stopped hunting it for quail because there were so few. If you had asked me, I would have said the cover didn't change all that much. I would have talked about hawks, mesopredators, turkeys, etc. Then one day I was on Google Earth and looked at how the satellite photos changed over the 20+ years we owned the place. I could not believe how different that one little 10 acre tract was. It was truly an aha! moment.

Now I believe that the single-most destructive thing we did to the quail on that property was convert grazing land to hay production. Ironically, in many of the un-hayed places the cover looked better. But that was only to my brain that evaluates bird cover based on where I find birds during the season, not based on what adult birds need in the spring and summer to make more birds.

I obviously have no idea what's happening on your farm in NW Missouri. I just know that the satellite photos of my family's place showed something dramatic happening over 20 years that none of us could see or appreciate in real time.
 
jstevens said:
I grew up on a farm in NW Missouri, we still own it. It is still covered with hedgerows, corn, beans, and lots of native prairie grass draws just like it had in the 1970's. This could all be coincidence, but when I was growing up there weren't many hawks, only saw about 2 eagles in 25 years. In 1972, DDT was banned, now there are hawks overlooking every field, I can drive an hour this time of year and see 8-10 bald eagles. I know the eagles don't catch quail, but the smaller, faster hawks do. Our farm hasn't changed as far as food or cover, but there are probably 20% of what the quail population. I've had conservation agents stand in our yard and tell me it's cover! I don't know the answer, but it ain't the whole story.
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So your trees did not grow any taller in 45 years? The plant structure in the hedgerows did not change in 45 years? No GMO' seeds and massive use of Roundup and other garbage products by Monsanto and others?

Find some old aerial photos of the farm which I'm sure someone has laying around and compare them to more recent google earth photos (You can go back to the early 90's alone on Google Earth I believe) and compare the 2. I'm sure you'll see massive changes not just on your farm but the neighbors. Habitat is not just inclusive of your small plot of land be it 160 acres or 2000 - everyone needs to take a more Macro view of things instead of the micro view.

The predator argument is old and worn out - they have nothing to do with it - quail are at the bottom of the food chain, they will be eaten by things, however if they do not have what they need they will not be prolific.


I suppose predators have all but eliminated the lesser prairie chicken in KS, TX, NM, CO & NM? All those migrating Golden Eagles and Coopers Hawks have just put a hurting on them - we should open a season on birds of prey. :cheers::thumbsup:
 
matto said:
I hear what you're saying and it's not an uncommon comment. Here's my story.

My family bought a farm in Greenwood county in the early 90s. At that time the land was used as grazing and, where possible, to grow crops. The grass was all native warm season grasses. Tenants were doing the grazing and the farming. The quail hunting was pretty good. In order to avoid the hassle of maintaining fences and the mess of cattle regularly getting into the yard around the house, we converted the grazing land to hay production.

There was one particular tract that, for a variety of reasons, could not be hayed. It was maybe 10 acres, had a seasonal creek running through it, and was bordered by crop ground on two sides and "yard" on another. When we first bought the place there were normally 4-5 coveys on this small tract.

Fast forward twenty years and there are NO quail on this piece and very few overall. We stopped hunting it for quail because there were so few. If you had asked me, I would have said the cover didn't change all that much. I would have talked about hawks, mesopredators, turkeys, etc. Then one day I was on Google Earth and looked at how the satellite photos changed over the 20+ years we owned the place. I could not believe how different that one little 10 acre tract was. It was truly an aha! moment.

Now I believe that the single-most destructive thing we did to the quail on that property was convert grazing land to hay production. Ironically, in many of the un-hayed places the cover looked better. But that was only to my brain that evaluates bird cover based on where I find birds during the season, not based on what adult birds need in the spring and summer to make more birds.

I obviously have no idea what's happening on your farm in NW Missouri. I just know that the satellite photos of my family's place showed something dramatic happening over 20 years that none of us could see or appreciate in real time.
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:10sign:

And, if you back the picture out from that 10 acres, you can see that the same changes have happened at a landscape scale on all the surrounding properties! This is why we are in the state we are in. 1 man cannot "tend" 2000 acres today just the way 20 men used to "tend" those same acres when they were 100 acre farms. 20 wood stoves made a difference. 20 families cutting brush and grubbing in crops made a difference. 10 acre fields vs 160 acre fields made a difference. Those 20 farmers doing burns between their small crop fields to control brush and weeds made a difference. Life has changed and the habitat with it.
 
I would also claim that the property I grew up on in Indiana has not changed in 20 years, but we have gone from 3 to 4 coveys on a couple hundred acres to maybe you hear a bird in the spring. I checked out the historical images on Google Earth, which was pretty cool. Maybe trees grew, but fence lines and hedgerows haven't changed.

I am sure I am missing something, but here is my latest reasoning when I reflect back. Fescue in Indiana has been an ever spreading habitat "disease" for quail and other animals. I believe quail are resilient especially when it comes to reproduction. We had a huge field of fescue grass growing up that is still there today. I think in my 20 year observation window, I believe the population struggled well for many years. While I don't believe predation to be an overly huge part of the problem, I do think that in 20 years other animals have been able to succeed more than others such as the bobwhite, thus increasing certain predator's impacts on quail. I don't think it is predator birds either, even though I do see way more hawks now than I did growing up. I think it is more so ground predators that have an impact during nesting and growing seasons. I think our population held on as best they could through the 90s into early 2000, but continued the steady decline to the sad condition it is today really due to this habitat problem that was already here for quite some time.

Hunting quail in Indiana, I remember having a lot more walk-in flushes whether coveys or singles, than what I experience in central and western Kansas. At least in the areas I hunt in KS, the birds tend to run and tend to flush wild as a group. The reason for the difference is that the birds in Kansas have room to run in their cover, where as birds in Indiana do not. They behave a little differently due to their habitat.

Indiana has a wetter climate than Kansas, so things don't struggle to grow and get thick through spring and summer. Not sure about the difference in Missouri climate v.s. Kansas. Three years ago a farm we hunt opening day each year held 3 coveys on about 150 acres. We have found no birds there in the last 2 years. This is a close family friend of ours, and he has focused on planting food plots. One dominant plant he established in several areas is partridge pea, which comes back every year. However, fescue and thicker brush have found its way into these areas. He has never done any burning, and I think this is long overdue.

There's my 2 cents, let me know if I am full of BS and if I need to change my thinking.
 
quailhunter101 said:
I would also claim that the property I grew up on in Indiana has not changed in 20 years, but we have gone from 3 to 4 coveys on a couple hundred acres to maybe you hear a bird in the spring. I checked out the historical images on Google Earth, which was pretty cool. Maybe trees grew, but fence lines and hedgerows haven't changed.

I am sure I am missing something, but here is my latest reasoning when I reflect back. Fescue in Indiana has been an ever spreading habitat "disease" for quail and other animals. I believe quail are resilient especially when it comes to reproduction. We had a huge field of fescue grass growing up that is still there today. I think in my 20 year observation window, I believe the population struggled well for many years. While I don't believe predation to be an overly huge part of the problem, I do think that in 20 years other animals have been able to succeed more than others such as the bobwhite, thus increasing certain predator's impacts on quail. I don't think it is predator birds either, even though I do see way more hawks now than I did growing up. I think it is more so ground predators that have an impact during nesting and growing seasons. I think our population held on as best they could through the 90s into early 2000, but continued the steady decline to the sad condition it is today really due to this habitat problem that was already here for quite some time.

Hunting quail in Indiana, I remember having a lot more walk-in flushes whether coveys or singles, than what I experience in central and western Kansas. At least in the areas I hunt in KS, the birds tend to run and tend to flush wild as a group. The reason for the difference is that the birds in Kansas have room to run in their cover, where as birds in Indiana do not. They behave a little differently due to their habitat.

Indiana has a wetter climate than Kansas, so things don't struggle to grow and get thick through spring and summer. Not sure about the difference in Missouri climate v.s. Kansas. Three years ago a farm we hunt opening day each year held 3 coveys on about 150 acres. We have found no birds there in the last 2 years. This is a close family friend of ours, and he has focused on planting food plots. One dominant plant he established in several areas is partridge pea, which comes back every year. However, fescue and thicker brush have found its way into these areas. He has never done any burning, and I think this is long overdue.

There's my 2 cents, let me know if I am full of BS and if I need to change my thinking.
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It would be very interesting if you could put up some close up screen shots of the most recent and oldest Google Earth pics you can of your farm for us to look at. I'm guessing different eyes would see different changes.
 
Here are some screen shots. The 1998 image was black and white! I guess the one thing I would say is that there are a few houses that have been built across the road to the east. Also across the road was a cow pasture, and is now a crop field. The images are true north(up is north, down is south). Thanks for the interest, Troy. Excited to hear what you think.
 
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