Surrogator

Prairie Drifter, thanks for the great info. No more questions at this point.

The 30-40K acres is daunting. I've always prescribed to models that create success on smaller scale and then duplicate the model. It works with pheasants but maybe not with quail. I will have to get that diverse habitat established first and then see if establishment is viable. The native pheasants self-establsih in this neck of the woods.

Great thread.
 
surrogator for sell

i've got one for sell if anyone's interested. i've ran two of them for the last two years with mixed success. the land i have is too far from my house and i've been spending too much money heading down there everyweekend. so, i'm going to sell one and keep the other and use it on a buddies land closer to home. let me know if anyone's interested or would like more info.
 
Myron, it is in On Bobwhites by Fred Guthery on page 14. The quote is: "if a quail manager in an erratic climate wants to ensure that his grea, great grandchildren have bobwhites, space for 3000-4000 birds must be provided right now." They project that on the next page at 30,000-40,000 acres.

Prairie Drifter-

Where can I get the book?

Another question: What are your thoughts on guzzlers in arid climates?
 
Maynard, I think if you google OSU and go to their biology dept, you'll find the books. I think that guzzlers have a place in arid areas in some years. I'm not sure your area fits into that category. Ask yourself if you have dew most days and if you generally have succulent plants most of the brood rearing period. If you say yes to both of those, you probably don't need a guzzler. Usually, quail get most of their water needs from their food.
 
guzzlers

Prairie Drifter-

Do you know of any studies that show a positive benefit of guzzlers? FSA has required them around here on CRP acres. Most are the tin shed roof going into a gutter running into a couple of 55 gallon barrels cut in half and buried with a screen running into the water for the birds to get a drink. I know they concentrate the birds in arid areas such as Cimarron National Grasslands. My concern is concentrating ground and avian predators there also.

Guzzlers would have had little if any benefit here two years ago. That was the year that the winter wheat was harvested a month early because of drought. My wheat was shin high and cut right on the ground. After harvest what few weeds were there looked like they had been burned down with roundup. There were no insects and we went for months with hot dry winds and no dew. The nesting success was very poor and what hatches occurred were pretty much doomed.

I will look for Fred Guthery's book. I don't have many habitat books on my bookshelf and need some more. I have one by Edward Kozicky, then some small paperbacks, Bobwhite Quail Management by Landers & Mueller(1986), Habitat Management by Robert Wood(Reprint 1969), Upland Game management by Floyd Johnson(1948). This is the time of year that I look at my habitat and evaluate it and plan for improvements. I always see more that needs to be done than I have time and money to accomplish, but I try to improve my weakest areas. I have heard that quail may live and die within a quarter a mile from where they are hatched, so looking at the quail habitat on 40 acre blocks makes sense.

I do appreciate your input on this subject that is near and dear to my heart.
 
It is time to start this year's habitat plans. Time to look at grasslands and determine what needs burned. Though late, there's still time to do disturbance disking. Time to build brush piles or do half cutting. My contractor just started my disturbance disking Monday. I would have rather done it Oct/Nov, but lots of seasons open then and his wife had to have emergency surgery when we were ready to go earlier. Better to do it late than not at all as I am convinced it is my limiting factor on much of my area, brood habitat that is. You are right, when there is a severe drought, worrying about brood rearing is kinda moot! But, it is very important to maximize the survival of the adult birds because they have to make it through an additional year in order to contribute to the population increase. ANYTHING that concentrates covies unnaturally can contribute to additional mortality from predation, disease, and accidents, etc. That is why it is best to have diversity distributed across as wide an area as possible.
 
PrairieDrifter, can you go into more detail about what you like to accomplish short-term with disturbance disking? What I mean is, I will have mid-term management on CRP contracts and then prescribe disturbance disking but what that means can vary widely.

In other words, if you on not on the tractor how to you give your subs the proper instructions on how much disking to do to get the desired results.

I do have some burn plans in place for this spring and hope to bring fire through the place and what what happens.
 
Disking

In much of the central US, when you maintain grasslands over time, they tend toward becoming more and more high successional. The effects of (well managed) grazing and burning tend to benefit the grass and squeeze out the forbs. As a result, the lower successional plants that quail depend upon for brood rearing insects and fall/winter seed/food become limited. The quickest way to replace the brood cover is with a light to moderate disking, generally done in Oct/Nov here to promote the broadleaf forbs that most benefit quail. Other ways are using cattle attractors to disturb the soil and grass to the benefit of forbs. That might be moving your oiler, mineral box, tank, bale feeder, or other cattle attractor around to promote those forbs. You can do it intentionally by concentrating cattle, by patch burning, and various other methods. I choose disking because of a lack of manpower and flexibility within our grazing contracts to use cattle as the disturbance. If I weren't on such sandy soils, I might use patch burning. I just fear getting this sand moving in larger tracts if I were to hit a dry year. Also, by disking, I can sculpt my brood rearing cover so it is adjacent to nesting and escape cover, making the most out of it. In many parts of the country it is an accepted mid term management practice on CRP acres. For CRP, you might even want to broadcast a legume into the disked strip. Alfalfa, clover, sanfoin, medic, and lespedeza are some options for that. 10-25% coverage is good. If you did 10% per year, you would see benefits out of each treatment for about 3-5 years before it returned to grass. If you move your strip over each year, you have several different stages all in close proximity to one another creating the best possible array of habitat.
 
PrairieDrifter,

Thank you. This is excellent info. It just brings up more questions/ideas. I hope that is alright.

The other mid-term practice allowed is clipping/baling/buring bales. Which do you prefer compared with disk disturbance and why?

Another option that is equipment dependent is mulch/compost the litter with a heavy duty flail mower. This might bet good if followed with a light disk pass to release the early successionals.

Since burning doesn't disturb the ground how would this be better that the mulching flail mower? I expect it has something to do with "heat".

Another opportunity for brood rearing habitat I see is in the CP-5a trees. 84' and 5 rows with fabric I could see there being and opportuntity to broadcast some legumes like your were talking about. It seems like quail and pheasant share the same brood rearing requirements and I have seen good brood production or pheasant in my 12 acres of existing CP-5a trees. They tend to use the fabric fro escape routes.
 
Options

I apologize to Brody's dad for this thread turning away from surrogators. Not intentional, but I do think we're getting some good information out. UGUIDE, there are a variety of negatives with any type of mowing. Hen mortality, nest destruction, and various other problems come to mind. If you recall that the growth points of native warm-season grasses is at ground level, you can rationalize that the mowing will again benefit the grasses. You have to understand that the majority of practices are designed to benefit "cattle" by improving grass populations, then you can understand the the disking option added expressly for ground nesting bird benefit is the best fit. Burning does not disturb the ground, but it can be conducted to reduce the vigor of the grass. Here, I burn in March, giving the forbs the competitive advantage before the grasses come to life in late April or early May. As you get further from the burn, the grass again takes a dominant role. Personally, your best bet is to manage with these methods directed at pheasants as they do so well there. Quail are always going to be marginal and any hope to make them more than that is limited by the climate. I would take 200 pheasants every year over a covey or two once in awhile anytime.
 
We're a bunch of thread jackers.....ARRGGGHHH!!!!!! (pirate accent)

Prairie Drifter, all makes sense and probably some sage advice on the quail vs. pheasant strategy.

Good stuff. My last dilemma for spring projects is combating competiton on new grass seedings. I've had problems seeding warm season grasses into winter wheat stubble. I disked new CRP projects last fall but volunteer wheat is already back.

ON the mowing, I always try to mow early or late. Once when I mowed the trees around Aug. 1 I bet I pushed about 500 birds out of theose 12 acres of trees (hens/broods).

The NRCS DC is recommending "Plateau" herbicide. I could disk again in spring but I like minimizing tillage when I can and I am thinking of just leaving the ground alone since it is prepped and just letting them drill the seed in and then going over the top right after with Roundup/Plateau. I guess the Plateau has some residual control. Any experience with that stuff?

This is the kind of thread I was hoping this forum would produce.:cheers:
 
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Plateau

This is a fairly good chemical if there is one. It is wildlife friendly, probably would take care of your wheat competition, and a variety of forbs are resistant to it. The roundup will harm those forbs. There is a significant difference between the benefits of trees in Kansas, versus South Dakota. With the severity of your winters, the depth of your low temperatures, and the frequency of the same, trees are a valuable resource to your birds. Here, most winters will come and pass without threatening snow loads or long stretches of low lows. Our birds can frequently thrive in just CRP grass. If you are planting new grass, the Plateau/Roundup mix is good. If you're treating established grass plantings, leave out the Roundup.
 
I've got a 18 acres 2 year stand of CRP of warm seasons that were planted into winter wheat stubble (everyone thought this was good?). On my other farm 6 miles away 7 acres got planted into burned winter wheat stubble as well except early spring my operator was burning his bale residue and fire got away and burned most of winter wheat stubble in that field. Warm season were planted into burned black dirt. these 2 patches has vastly different results. The one planted into burned stubble doing great. The other 18 acres piece is full of cheat grass and the warm season are just starting to comes and poor brood production.

Would the Plateau help on that piece at all? We are planning to burn it this spring. Would I still need chemical is burn was done?

I'm runnin out of questions....
 
Plateau works very well on the various brome species, of which cheat grass is (Downy Brome). If you spray before the warm season grass is still dormant, you may be able to still use the roundup as it is not a residual. I doubt if you have enough residue to get a burn hot enough to kill all of the brome. The chemical may well be your best option.
 
Plateau works very well on the various brome species, of which cheat grass is (Downy Brome). If you spray before the warm season grass is still dormant, you may be able to still use the roundup as it is not a residual. I doubt if you have enough residue to get a burn hot enough to kill all of the brome. The chemical may well be your best option.

Interesting strategy. I wish I would have done that last spring. Just to be sure.....if 50% of your warm season has come in but the cheat is still thick you could spray ealry spring while warm season grasses are dormant with roundup/plateau and not hurt the warm seasons??

I know you can go over the seed in dirt but not sure about above ground plant. Maybe I am misunderstaning about the dormancy thing.
 
The top growth from last year does not green up this year. So, if you don't get the Roundup on new growth, you shouldn't affect the plant. It does have to be around 70 degrees for the roundup to work. The brome/cheat is biennial cool season, so the sprouted plants will be killed by the roundup while the unsprouted seed will be killed by the Plateau. If it weren't CRP, grazing could be used to stress the cheat. It wouldn't be as effective probably.
 
The top growth from last year does not green up this year. So, if you don't get the Roundup on new growth, you shouldn't affect the plant. It does have to be around 70 degrees for the roundup to work. The brome/cheat is biennial cool season, so the sprouted plants will be killed by the roundup while the unsprouted seed will be killed by the Plateau. If it weren't CRP, grazing could be used to stress the cheat. It wouldn't be as effective probably.

B-EAU-TIFUL! Not that long ago I didn't know difference between warm/cool season. Education makes all the difference. Thanks for the education.:10sign:
 
I've got a 18 acres 2 year stand of CRP of warm seasons that were planted into winter wheat stubble (everyone thought this was good?). On my other farm 6 miles away 7 acres got planted into burned winter wheat stubble as well except early spring my operator was burning his bale residue and fire got away and burned most of winter wheat stubble in that field. Warm season were planted into burned black dirt. these 2 patches has vastly different results. The one planted into burned stubble doing great. The other 18 acres piece is full of cheat grass and the warm season are just starting to comes and poor brood production.

Would the Plateau help on that piece at all? We are planning to burn it this spring. Would I still need chemical is burn was done?

I'm runnin out of questions....

Uguide: I've used Plateau on my new grass seedings with good success. Here are some tips.

1. Journey is Plateau and Roundup mixed together. It isn't as restricted as Plateau so its easier to obtain.

2. Use about 6 to 8 oz Plateau (or equivalent Journey) per acre on new seedings.

3. Plateau will keep weeds away for about 6 weeks depending on moisture so apply it as late as possible. Usually grasses don't emerge for at least 10 days so the best time to apply is within 10 days after planting the grass.

4. Warm season grasses take two to four years to establish so give it time. Sometimes it may establish the first year, I had it happen once, but most of the time it takes longer than that. On one of my warm season plantings, it was the third growing season before I had something to look at.

5. If your Plateau is working good you will only need to mow it once the first year in early August. Don't mow after Sept 1 in any year. Mow to leave at least a six inch stubble and don't mow the second or third year unless its to control noxious weeds.

6. Spray the noxious weeds with Milestone if needed the first couple of years. As the grass establishes the noxious weeds will have a tougher time competing although they may not go away altogether without some help.

I've planted alot of grasses in many types of conditions such as oats stubble, alfalfa stubble, bean stubble, corn stubble and I've never had a failure. Given time the grass usually wins out.


Hope this helps.
 
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1. Forefront is Plateau and Roundup mixed together. It isn't as restricted as Plateau so its easier to obtain.

QUOTE]

Landman, I can use all the help I can get. Thanks for the tips, tricks and tactics.

Hey, I thought Forefront was Milestone + 2-4-D ??

Yes, you are correct. Forefront is Milestone and 24D, I mean't to say "Journey" instead.

LM
 
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