speed kills

[mustistuff]

leads

i believe that most pheasants shot at while flushing are led too much and therefore missed. cross shots, those where the bird is up to speed are shot behind. example: using data from an old lyman book, a load going at about 1300 on a crossing mallard at 20 yds. is 3 3/4 ft. at 40 yds. is 8 1/4 ft. and at 60 yds it would be 14 ft. these are using 4 shot so if you were using 6 shot, the lead especially at the longer range would be more and at 60 yd., much more. for most of us, shooting at 40 yds. or more is a crap shoot and most of us don't have minds that work that well and these fig. are also dependent upon your shooting style like point and shoot or swing through but they will give you an idea as to why you can't hit anything

cheers

 

[steele]

I like the pheasants forever 1 1/8 ounce 1,500 fps. Could be psychological. I fell into the faster is better mentality. I remember hunting a few years ago and my friends brother was shooting 1 1/2 ounce 3" mag shells. They didn't help him. I bought a fancy choke in improved cylinder and that seemed to improve my shooting. What seemed to really improve my accuracy was shooting at doves in late summer. Pheasants seemed like bombers compared to a dove, unless of course the pheasant caught the wind, then I never could catch up. Thanks guys, very good info posted.

 

[Dakotazeb]

I like the pheasants forever 1 1/8 ounce 1,500 fps. Could be psychological. I fell into the faster is better mentality. I remember hunting a few years ago and my friends brother was shooting 1 1/2 ounce 3" mag shells. They didn't help him. I bought a fancy choke in improved cylinder and that seemed to improve my shooting. What seemed to really improve my accuracy was shooting at doves in late summer. Pheasants seemed like bombers compared to a dove, unless of course the pheasant caught the wind, then I never could catch up. Thanks guys, very good info posted.

I believe those Federal Pheasant Forever loads in 12 ga. are 1 1/4 oz. They also make a 1 3/8 oz. at 1,500 fps but it's not PF.

 

[birdshooter]

Gotta love these type of threads.

Speed doesn't kill, it's your ability to put the shot in the right place that kills.

Work on that and watch your kill ratio skyrocket......

 

[mustistuff]

Gotta love these type of threads.

Speed doesn't kill, it's your ability to put the shot in the right place that kills.

Work on that and watch your kill ratio skyrocket......

ya got some of that right. for the most part i am getting the same results out of my muzzle loader's as i do with my bird guns, but then i don't shoot past 30 yds. the muzzle loader shoots at about 1050 fps and i use again, 7.5 mixed with 1/3 6's

cheers

 

[BRITTMAN]

I would suspect the economics of shell production weigh in the favor of less shot.

I prefer finding the fastest loads that do not compromise loading. They are out their if you look.

 

[BRITTMAN]

A few hours on a skeet range will work wonders on developing leads for crossing shots.

 

[Emperor_MA]

One of my all-time favorite loads for medium-size birds (chukar, huns, grouse) is 1oz of hard-antimony #7s (not 7 1/2s) that exit a 12ga barrel at about 1,300 fps. The load is good-quality shot, and I am sure that helps. However, I am convinced the load works so well because there is hardly any shot-stringing with the modest load traveling at good but not great speed. The shot arrives all at the same time .... if my aim is true, all those hits smack the bird with lots of energy and result in devastating kills .... think "poofs" and DRT. If I miss, I miss clean.

I guess I am of the old school that believes that "square loads" traveling at decent but not high velocity kill best. That "research" was, if I'm not mistaken, conducted before the days of smokeless powder!

I use the same philosophy for pheasant, where my favorite load is 1 1/16th oz of nickel-plated #6s at 1,300 fps. I use the bigger shot with nickel plating because I really prefer to break a rooster's legs and wings on going away shots (I hunt over pointing dogs)whenever possible.

 

[mustistuff]

One of my all-time favorite loads for medium-size birds (chukar, huns, grouse) is 1oz of hard-antimony #7s (not 7 1/2s) that exit a 12ga barrel at about 1,300 fps. The load is good-quality shot, and I am sure that helps. However, I am convinced the load works so well because there is hardly any shot-stringing with the modest load traveling at good but not great speed. The shot arrives all at the same time .... if my aim is true, all those hits smack the bird with lots of energy and result in devastating kills .... think "poofs" and DRT. If I miss, I miss clean.

I guess I am of the old school that believes that "square loads" traveling at decent but not high velocity kill best. That "research" was, if I'm not mistaken, conducted before the days of smokeless powder!

I use the same philosophy for pheasant, where my favorite load is 1 1/16th oz of nickel-plated #6s at 1,300 fps. I use the bigger shot with nickel plating because I really prefer to break a rooster's legs and wings on going away shots (I hunt over pointing dogs)whenever possible.

speed years ago was not a big deal and most had no way to measure it, but patterns, they could. hard shot mostly will give superior patterns but much of the shot string is still there, there are several other things that effect the string, like wads, barrel diameter, the .410 is the longest, and i would think, choke. sounds like you are shooting fiocchi golden pheasant. a wonderful load. this summer i shot nearly 50 turkey targets with my 28 ga., the max. range was 40 yds. while i was doctoring the loads, the test were 1/2 copper and 1/2 nickel. i found no difference between them (hits on the head and neck). lead was much worse and i was using hi antimony.

cheers

 

[sneem]

I blame it all on steel shot. Nobody paid much attention to velocity until steel was mandated. Previously, the closest one got to velocity was dram equiv. and who knew what that meant? For decades, or more accurately for generations, pheasants were laid low with shells at about 1200 to 1250 fps. Everyone was happy.
Then steel shot came along and velocity was everything. That velocity mania slipped down into the lead shot ranks. Now you have guys almost swearing that unless you are shooting 1500 fps or more the shot will practically bounce off a pheasant. Crazy.
The truth is more birds are probably lost using these new super velocity lightning bolt shells than were lost with the older standard loads. That's because these new shells kick like mules and the shooters are afraid of the recoil and don't shoot them as well. And thinking that somehow these new super duper shells are up their with the Hammer of Thor, they take shots at way too long a range and do more wounding than killing.
But if you like the recoil and can stand paying $20.00 a box for shells, be my guest. I'll stick with the 3 dram (1200 fps) loads I've been shooting for about 50 years. Dead is dead and my head doesn't ring every time I pull the trigger. The pheasants don't seem to notice the difference.

 

[jarbo03]

Proper shot size and pattern density are the most important factors. But, a with two pellets of the same size, the one traveling faster will always have more energy.

 

[birdshooter]

Proper shot size and pattern density are the most important factors. But, a with two pellets of the same size, the one traveling faster will always have more energy.

Don't forget the laws of physics, it will also be the one that also slows the quickest, so you lose much of that velocity/energy advantage due to friction (air drag) once it gets downrange a ways.

Speed kills is purely marketing and marketing only when it comes to lead.

 

[Dakotazeb]

Proper shot size and pattern density are the most important factors. But, a with two pellets of the same size, the one traveling faster will always have more energy.

Yes, but the difference decreases as the distance increases. Below is a quote from an article written by Tom Roster about shotgun pellet velocity.

If two balls of the same shape and mass are started with one ball having a 150 fps greater instrumental velocity over the other ball, unfortunately at 40 yards, for example, the 150 fps initially faster ball will have shed the majority of the 150 fps velocity and momentum muzzle differential advantage over the slower ball.

 

[jarbo03]

True, but physics also tells us it will always be traveling faster at any given yardage with more energy. Where people go wrong is thinking they can drop pellet sizes because of speed. The extra 1/8" or more penetration on a tough angling bird is where it shows a difference. Not necessary to kill birds by no means, but my field experiences, penetration tests, and patterning in high winds show it to help.

 

[birdshooter]

As I stated above, the ability to put the shot in the right spot will do far more for putting birds in the bag than any load could possibly dream of doing. That said, I would be more concerned with having enough pellets in any given load and the right choke, than what speed the load is carrying. Pheasants are not hard to kill and you don't need hyper velocity loads to do the job cleanly, not to mention high velocity tends to blow patterns when compared to a moderate velocity load of the equivalent size. I've done enough pattern testing on target loads of the low and HV variety to see the difference is not accidental. Remember were talking lead here but even with steel, you can take the velocity thing too far IMO.

The extra 1/8" or more penetration on a tough angling bird is where it shows a difference

You want more penetration, simple... go to a larger shot size.

 

[Dakotazeb]

True, but physics also tells us it will always be traveling faster at any given yardage with more energy. Where people go wrong is thinking they can drop pellet sizes because of speed. The extra 1/8" or more penetration on a tough angling bird is where it shows a difference. Not necessary to kill birds by no means, but my field experiences, penetration tests, and patterning in high winds show it to help.

You are right, and I'm not trying to start and argument. BUT, I merely wanted to point out that as distance increases the velocity difference decreases to a point that it's not as large of an advantage. Notice Roster said, "will have shed the majority of the velocity differential". I just want others less versed in this subject to be clear that if one pellet has a 150 fps greater velocity at the muzzle that the difference at 40 yds. is probably only 50 fps. But yes, it is still traveling faster.

However, that 50 fps advantage at 40 yds. could be overridden by pattern density. It is a proven fact that higher velocities can blow some patterns. But then again every gun is different so you really need to pattern and see what works best in your gun.

We are really starting to "split hairs" here so lets just let it rest. Merry Christmas!

 

[birdshooter]

What really puzzle's me is how people can discount shooting ability over equipment.

When I was still very active competing in Sporting clays I remember chuckling when I would hear people talk about buying a $12K+ Krieghoff K-80 O/U and the best ammo money could buy so they could compete with the big boys. When that didn't pan out, it was the guns fault and they would sell it and buy something different. This would never seemingly end and instead of spending all the money initially on a gun they could have been using it to take shooting lessons from a competent shooting instructor.

 

[FCSpringer]

Ahh this talk again LOL.

 

[carptom1]

What really puzzle's me is how people can discount shooting ability over equipment.

When I was still very active competing in Sporting clays I remember chuckling when I would hear people talk about buying a $12K+ Krieghoff K-80 O/U and the best ammo money could buy so they could compete with the big boys. When that didn't pan out, it was the guns fault and they would sell it and buy something different. This would never seemingly end and instead of spending all the money initially on a gun they could have been using it to take shooting lessons from a competent shooting instructor.

My uncle was a very good competition shooter back in the day. His go to gun was a 870 pump with electrical tape holding a piece of wood on the stock. He said it gave him an advantage because the other guy's would get bunched up when he was smoking them with his crappy gun. People get too caught up in a cool picture on the box and a hot load. A good shooter will make it work.

 

[Dakotazeb]

What really puzzle's me is how people can discount shooting ability over equipment.

When I was still very active competing in Sporting clays I remember chuckling when I would hear people talk about buying a $12K+ Krieghoff K-80 O/U and the best ammo money could buy so they could compete with the big boys. When that didn't pan out, it was the guns fault and they would sell it and buy something different. This would never seemingly end and instead of spending all the money initially on a gun they could have been using it to take shooting lessons from a competent shooting instructor.

Agree 100%. Who the hell cares about the cost of the gun or shells. Or that one load is a little faster than the next. Kind of like the kid that buys the most expensive basketball shoes to make him a better player. Ain't going to happen! Some hunters can shoot and some can't, regardless of the gun or loads.