Slowing the dog on a running rooster

jonnyB said:
And "chasing" can be a very bad habit...whether it's deer, rabbits or roosters.

Once they start down that road it can be very hard to break. I try not to let my dog get out of range - at 6 mo. or 6 yrs.

What's a bad flush??

As for the "whistle-sit" routine: who wants to listen to a whistle all day? Almost as bad as an owner yelling!

Not sure what field champions are taught or how they are judged. Never hunted with one, but have hunted with great pheasant dogs...and the good dogs don't flush ahead of the owner. The original post in this interesting post/ series is about a 10-yr. Lab...
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Umm I believe unless I was drunk LOL, it was also a puppy, a second dog. On your AKC registration, a field champion is the FC AFC NFC scribble;). It is not a hard task to break at all. You just have to know how to train a dog. Calling dogs off maybe has been OK for the couple you have worked with. But when you see hundreds like us who train, you see the issues were talking about. Some call it poor flush, could be blinking, could be as bad as not wanting to go in on a bird at all if you screw it up. So I will stick with the proven tried and true method.:thumbsup: Mine will be chasing tomorrow. Now that all said, we do start this on pigeons, and when it is time for pheasants they are ready to be steady. Chasing stops. But I still will not stop them on runners till they learn it well first. When they get good at putting the nose down and going, consistently producing the bird. Then it's time. Which is different for all dogs. A dog that does not have that ability there will never be a need. One that is good at it, I sure as hell will not pound it out of him LOL. That is what I look for in a good dog. And as Tom said, I could care less about a few of the first birds getting flushed out of range. There is plenty out there.
 
jonnyB said:
And "chasing" can be a very bad habit...whether it's deer, rabbits or roosters.

Once they start down that road it can be very hard to break. I try not to let my dog get out of range - at 6 mo. or 6 yrs.

What's a bad flush??

As for the "whistle-sit" routine: who wants to listen to a whistle all day? Almost as bad as an owner yelling!

Not sure what field champions are taught or how they are judged. Never hunted with one, but have hunted with great pheasant dogs...and the good dogs don't flush ahead of the owner. The original post in this interesting post/ series is about a 10-yr. Lab...
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PS who said anything about having to listen to a whistle all day??? LOL. The hup whistle to stop and sit your ass down is one quick toot. And it hardly effects birds. I have been training and hunting for 30 plus years. I have not had issues with anything that seems to be bothering.:cheers:
 
goldenboy said:
FCS Springer, Mnaj Springer, and West KS Bowhunter, I have a question for you guys. When hunting wild roosters especially late season birds they tend to be very nervous around lots of sounds like car doors slamming, voices, whistles, etc. How do you stop a dog chasing a running rooster so that you can get close enough to have it flush within range? I use the vibrate button on my e-collar and my dogs have learned to turn and come back just as if I were to yell here. It seems to work great especially when I am trying to be as quiet as possible. What do you guys do or recommend in those situations?
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Well, often you can just get moving if you know how to recognize the dog is on game. But on a hot runner, where the dog is clearly blowing it out. I first try to go with, and if I can not keep up, I hit the hup whistle. One crisp quick toot. Never a collar. Now your punishing the dog for good behavior if you use the collar to make them stop on a runner. It needs a command. The whistle I and many use, is not alarming birds at all. Toot, dog sits till I get there, and I say high on, they continue. This can go on for a long way. But 99% of the time when a dog puts it's nose down, you can simply recognize it and follow them. And then shoot the bird or not. When it flushes, then the hup comes in again. If it is a hen, well your not calling your dog back from a half mile. But if your using a collar to stop a dog on a runner, as said, your asking for trouble. Hitting someone for doing the right thing so to speak. Now if you hit your whistle, and he does not listen to a command, that is when you can correct the dog. He is being corrected for bad behavior, and they do know the dif if you teach the command. A bird in flight is different. This is why a steady dog is less confusing to a dog. If steady, chasing without being released is bad behavior, and can be corrected with out screwing up the dog. Hitting an un steady dog because he chased a hen is now confusing the dog. And suddenly he may say screw you, I'm never going out to get that other dam bird either. Hence never wanting to retrieve.;) PS we don't just dream this up LOL. We have seen many fine dogs screwed up by doing some of these things. Guilty myself. I just offer tried and true help here and there. If someone is receptive or not to it, it is a choice, and I can not worry about that. Life goes on. People near are always welcome to come and have fun training. If they want to help and be helped.
 
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The key to stopping a dog starts at an 8 week old pup. If you want to be successful at the "stop" you first need to install the soft ware. Teach the hup. And when training, you have to reach a point where the dog will hup any time, any where, and while running. They hear that toot, they sit and wait for a command. I teach them to hup for food right off out of the gate. That helps big time later having it mean something while working It in to later stages of training.:thumbsup: And those commands by the way can be as quiet as you wish. To call them in I drop my arm for a silent come. My hand up means stay, I can draw them in with a drop, and cast them off with a hand signal. So this all can be done silent. Except the hup on a runner. You need a toot. Fully trained they should sit to the flush, sit to a shot, or sit to a hup.
 
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FCSpringer said:
Well, often you can just get moving if you know how to recognize the dog is on game. But on a hot runner, where the dog is clearly blowing it out. I first try to go with, and if I can not keep up, I hit the hup whistle. One crisp quick toot. Never a collar. Now your punishing the dog for good behavior if you use the collar to make them stop on a runner. It needs a command. The whistle I and many use, is not alarming birds at all. Toot, dog sits till I get there, and I say high on, they continue. This can go on for a long way. But 99% of the time when a dog puts it's nose down, you can simply recognize it and follow them. And then shoot the bird or not. When it flushes, then the hup comes in again. If it is a hen, well your not calling your dog back from a half mile. But if your using a collar to stop a dog on a runner, as said, your asking for trouble. Hitting someone for doing the right thing so to speak. Now if you hit your whistle, and he does not listen to a command, that is when you can correct the dog. He is being corrected for bad behavior, and they do know the dif if you teach the command. A bird in flight is different. This is why a steady dog is less confusing to a dog. If steady, chasing without being released is bad behavior, and can be corrected with out screwing up the dog. Hitting an un steady dog because he chased a hen is now confusing the dog. And suddenly he may say screw you, I'm never going out to get that other dam bird either. Hence never wanting to retrieve.;) PS we don't just dream this up LOL. We have seen many fine dogs screwed up by doing some of these things. Guilty myself. I just offer tried and true help here and there. If someone is receptive or not to it, it is a choice, and I can not worry about that. Life goes on. People near are always welcome to come and have fun training. If they want to help and be helped.
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I agree but I think it should be a top priority for this dog owner to stop hunting this untrained puppy! A retriever is much different than a pointing breed. A retriever was born flush but first a solid training program including obedience must be accomplished before the puppy is hunted. Amy and John Dahl had a great article in Retriever Journal about 20 years ago about not hunting a retriever until it was through a program and about 1.5 years of age. I will see if I can dig it up. My latest female was 15 months of age before she got to hunt any upland game. She had been through a complete program. She is the most disciplined well mannered dog I have had in the field. She also has more drive than any dog I have had. Now she just needs more experience.

Get that pup through obedience, force fetch, collar conditioning, whistle sit, and a thorough quartering program and it will be ready for the fall of 2017. Otherwise you won't ever have a companion anywhere near its full potential.
 
Thanks guys for the feedback. Different people have different views. I have found that the guy who thinks he knows it all or more than everyone else seldom takes time to learn from others. I think most good dog trainers will train somewhat differently from others based on experience, knowledge, and how much they are open to continue learning. I by no means know it all when it comes to training, but hopefully I get better with each dog! Happy hunting the rest of the fall.
 
goldenboy said:
Thanks guys for the feedback. Different people have different views. I have found that the guy who thinks he knows it all or more than everyone else seldom takes time to learn from others. I think most good dog trainers will train somewhat differently from others based on experience, knowledge, and how much they are open to continue learning. I by no means know it all when it comes to training, but hopefully I get better with each dog! Happy hunting the rest of the fall.
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I agree 100 % on this quote. And I dont make noise in the field either. I cant stand whistles! If its just one toot on it to make them sit. Then whistle with your mouth. Also, I've used ecollars but mostly for the vibrate button only to turn my dog back toward me. But those of you that say the dog has learned to stay within gun range but need an ecollar to keep the dog there? The dog hasnt learned to stay within range, he has just learned how not to get shocked. If you have to shock your dog that is past the puppy stage then it still has more to learn. I'm guilty too. I had to use the vibrate to get my old setter to stay within range when hunting pheasants. But I dont collar my 2 vizslas, they have actually learned to check in more and stay in the proper range for my style of hunting. The old setter only learned to turn by the collar. Take the collar off and i couldnt turn him without voice commands. Great bird finder, but I wouldnt say he learned to stay in range, he just learned how not to get shocked.
 
Some dogs just don't seem to "get it."

My 6-yr. old loves to stray left or right and hunt by himself - doesn't seem to travel too far in front unless gearing up for the rooster chase.

Very strong prey drive and getting stronger! He knows what he's NOT supposed to do...but does it anyway and will take the stimulation.

Frustrated!
 
jonnyB said:
Some dogs just don't seem to "get it."

My 6-yr. old loves to stray left or right and hunt by himself - doesn't seem to travel too far in front unless gearing up for the rooster chase.

Very strong prey drive and getting stronger! He knows what he's NOT supposed to do...but does it anyway and will take the stimulation.

Frustrated!
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Or when you hit the vibrate button. They stop. Look at you. And go right back to doing the same thing. Definitely frustrating.
 
Not quite to that extreme...but close! He will turn, but would love to go back to his own interest...rabbit, deer or maybe a bird!

He would chase the rabbits in the back yard if I would let him!
 
PheasantWhisperer said:
I agree 100 % on this quote. And I dont make noise in the field either. I cant stand whistles! If its just one toot on it to make them sit. Then whistle with your mouth. Also, I've used ecollars but mostly for the vibrate button only to turn my dog back toward me. But those of you that say the dog has learned to stay within gun range but need an ecollar to keep the dog there? The dog hasnt learned to stay within range, he has just learned how not to get shocked. If you have to shock your dog that is past the puppy stage then it still has more to learn. I'm guilty too. I had to use the vibrate to get my old setter to stay within range when hunting pheasants. But I dont collar my 2 vizslas, they have actually learned to check in more and stay in the proper range for my style of hunting. The old setter only learned to turn by the collar. Take the collar off and i couldnt turn him without voice commands. Great bird finder, but I wouldnt say he learned to stay in range, he just learned how not to get shocked.
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Little different hunting pointers versus flushers. Flushers have no reason to stop. They keep blowing through birds right and left until you check them. It is also different hunting a field with one or two birds in it versus a cattail patch that had five hundred or more in it when you pulled up. That amount of scent can drive a dog crazy. No flusher will operate at 40 yards or closer all the time, they will however learn to stay near that range, unless they get a hot one and decide they don't want to anymore. Sure a dog is afraid of the jolt, isn't that the point? With the collar I rarely use it, without it I would yell myself crazy
 
jonnyB said:
Some dogs just don't seem to "get it."

My 6-yr. old loves to stray left or right and hunt by himself - doesn't seem to travel too far in front unless gearing up for the rooster chase.

Very strong prey drive and getting stronger! He knows what he's NOT supposed to do...but does it anyway and will take the stimulation.

Frustrated!
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Actually some dog owners don't seem to get it. It's not the failure of the dog to learn but the failure of the owner to lead and teach. Frustrated dog trainers should only be frustrated with their own short comings. Once you understand that the "collar" is a reinforcement tool and not a teaching tool you and your dog can enjoy some success.
 
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A dog trained to "whoa" should stop trailing at whoa. If not, it may, unfortunately, be time to use a little ecollar stimulus. Even my 10 year old dog needs a nick or a jolt on occasion.
 
Mark: both of us are "training failures" and should stop hunting altogether and discard the ecollar.

Perhaps I should switch dog food? Better yet - maybe withhold food for two day's so the dog is in a weakened condition! Then he won't be so aggressive!

Training problem? Trainer problem? Why didn't I think of that?

I think I need therapy...
 
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jonnyB said:
Mark: both of us are "training failures" and should stop hunting altogether and discard the ecollar.

Perhaps I should switch dog food? Better yet - maybe withhold food for two day's so the dog is in a weakened condition! Then he won't be so aggressive!

Training problem? Trainer problem? Why didn't I think of that?

I think I need therapy...
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That's for you to decide! Very few people really understand how to use a collar. It is reinforcement tool and not a tool that should be used to teach a dog anything. A dog will not just "take pressure" as you say if the pressure is given at the correct level and at the correct timing. Timing is the biggest key to using stimulation.
 
jonnyB said:
Mark: both of us are "training failures" and should stop hunting altogether and discard the ecollar.

Perhaps I should switch dog food? Better yet - maybe withhold food for two day's so the dog is in a weakened condition! Then he won't be so aggressive!

Training problem? Trainer problem? Why didn't I think of that?

I think I need therapy...
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Maybe a group therapy session? :)

I guess, gone are the fun days of hunting. Hunting is taken to serious today. Oh, the days, I was out of breathe keeping up with my bird dogs chasing after those pheasants, they were great flushing Ruffed Grouse and circling rabbits too. Yes sir, the fun my BEAGLES and I had in the field and woods. Memories of bygone days. :D
 
Group Therapy! Where do I sign-up? And could we get Weksbow to lead the discussion. He seems to have all the answers and none of the problems elucidated here.

He has such a vast repertoire of facts about dogs and collars. Actually, to date, he has contributed nothing to this discussion.

This discussion wasn't about e collars...was it? At least my issue wasn't about using my collar.

I'm done here...
 
Actually FC Springer and myself have provided lots of great information to those who are struggling and can appreciate good advise. I thought you were looking for some answers when you ended your post with "Frustrated".
 
FCSpringer said:
It is simple. You teach your dog to hup to a whistle. One toot, the dog sits and waits till you release them. We do it all the time. Most times I keep up, but if you need to you can sit them down, catch up and say hi on, or what ever command you use to go get em.:thumbsup: Teaching hup (Sit Stay) to whistle is done early on as a pup with just using food. Later in life when e collar intro is done it can be reinforced with that as well if you know how. I do not however like calling young dogs off or stopping them at that age. It can hurt the flush, or even the desire to go after a bird. First year or so, let her rip. But still teach the hup. The dog should sit with that command anywhere, anytime. For us, also on flush, wing, shot, and fall until sent. Labs are taught the same.
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I am on the other side of the country from you but was instructed by trainers here on the west coast to train my young flushing dog exactly this way. It was a very long time before I was even allowed to train my dog to stop on a runner since a strong flush is so much of a priority. After watching many dogs with weak (pointing) flushes I am really glad I followed this advice.
 
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