Should I Woah Post?

[Chuckles]

Mojo is coming up on 1 year old here and I have been teaching Woah by at first physically putting him back into the place where I said Woah, and then a treat after I release, but now I want to take his obedience of the command to the next level with increased correction. I have his e-collar on but I don't really think a stim if he moves from after a woah command is going to be effective. He is really good with it except if in an odd situation and a long distance from me - so I need to be able to remote correct. What do you suggest?

I am considering using a woah post and then moving to e-collar on his flank to reinforce the Woah, or do I just keep doing what I have been doing and correct as soon as I can get to him?

Maybe I should just get some pigeons and get them flapping around in front of him and Woah him from a short distance to reinforce instead of worrying about woahing from a large distance for now.

Thoughts?

 

[oldandnew]

I have suggested this before, the axiom of birddog training is like the first rule of litigation for an attorney, never ask a question you don't know the answer to! Ala O.J. and the black gloves. Translation to dogs is you never want to put a young dog in a position to give the wrong behavior and fail. It follows than that short range steadying is more likely to be enforceable and sucessful at first than longer distance training, the progression to longer distance won't take to long, basically a dog is whoa broke or not, but they do learn bad behavior if you are not in position to make a fairly instantaneous correction! If distance creates the belief in a dog that you are powerless to correct because distance makes you unable to "lay hands upon the dog", the otherwise compelling desire to chase becomes overpowering, even at the risk of retribution later. Might lead to other issues as well, running bigger, for one, if a little distance is good, a lot of distance is even better! Heck, if I can get far enough out, he won't even see my bad behavior, if he can't see it, he can't punish me for it. Don't underestimate the mental gymnastics of a dog. Now this advice is more important without an e-collar, and I have never used one, finished 3 or 4 dozen dogs and never needed it, but I sure got tested now and then! E-collar can be great if used properly, there in lies the rub, can also do a lot of harm as well, and can't be a substitution for fundamentals. I used to raise and train racehorses as well, I would condition them as babies when they weigh about 60-100#'s by picking them up off their feet and carrying them around a little, they would struggle, and fight the first few times, I would release them when they stopped. Eventually, you could carry them in a relaxed manner. Those colts and fillies never bucked, never challenged anyone in any way, because they believed than the human handler could always pick them up and or control them. Seems silly for a 1200# horse to believe that, but they have that memory and they do, dogs are the same.

 

[birdshooter]

I have his e-collar on but I don't really think a stim if he moves from after a woah command is going to be effective.

Why don't you think it will be effective?

I am considering using a woah post and then moving to e-collar on his flank to reinforce the Woah, or do I just keep doing what I have been doing and correct as soon as I can get to him?

Personally, I think you can do it without the whoa post. Using the collar around the flank is worth a try if you can't attain results with it around the neck.

Maybe I should just get some pigeons and get them flapping around in front of him and Woah him from a short distance to reinforce instead of worrying about whoaing from a large distance for now.

As was explained to me by a pro, the dog must have the whoa command down and engrained away from birds first, so there will be no confusion on the part of the dog as to why it is being corrected when you eventually start using it around birds. In other words, the dog will not associate the correction with a bird or the bird flushing, but rather it disobeyed a command.

You can try using a retrieving bumper to entice the dog to move after the command whoa has been given. Keep working with it and they will get it after time. It takes reps.

 

[B.Kossum]

I used to raise and train racehorses as well, I would condition them as babies when they weigh about 60-100#'s by picking them up off their feet and carrying them around a little, they would struggle, and fight the first few times, I would release them when they stopped. Eventually, you could carry them in a relaxed manner. Those colts and fillies never bucked, never challenged anyone in any way, because they believed than the human handler could always pick them up and or control them. Seems silly for a 1200# horse to believe that, but they have that memory and they do, dogs are the same.

Been around horses all my life (helped break a few), but I have never heard of this. I ain't doubting you one bit though- I could see it working. I will definitely pass that on.

 

[FieldKing]

somewhere somehow the whoa post has gotten a bad rap. When used properly it is a great tool for "whoa" training.

 

[jetjockey]

Why not just use a check cord first until the dog is 100% on "whoa", and then move up to the e-collar? Perfect Start/Perfect Finishes way of teaching "whoa" is really easy, and it works.... Don't be afraid of the e-collar, but make sure you teach yourself how to use it before you introduce it to the dog. They are wonderful tools and can make training so much easier, but if used wrong, can make life a nightmare as well. My trainer uses the collar on the flank at all times. Even the fully broke trial dogs. From what Ive seen, it works really well, plus it leaves room for the GPS collar around the dogs neck... "Whoa" posts work fine, but I don't see the need for them.

 

[wesslpointer]

Inprint

Been around horses all my life (helped break a few), but I have never heard of this. I ain't doubting you one bit though- I could see it working. I will definitely pass that on.

Kossum its called inprint training. Ive also used it on my horses and mules. I also like to hold older pups "3 months" make them stay still ,put hand in mouth, teach them to give early, as well as inprint them on birds when there young 8 to 10 weeks but be carefull not to spoke them.

 

[wesslpointer]

Why not just use a check cord first until the dog is 100% on "whoa", and then move up to the e-collar? Perfect Start/Perfect Finishes way of teaching "whoa" is really easy, and it works.... Don't be afraid of the e-collar, but make sure you teach yourself how to use it before you introduce it to the dog. They are wonderful tools and can make training so much easier, but if used wrong, can make life a nightmare as well. My trainer uses the collar on the flank at all times. Even the fully broke trial dogs. From what Ive seen, it works really well, plus it leaves room for the GPS collar around the dogs neck... "Whoa" posts work fine, but I don't see the need for them.

jetjockey the reason for the whoa post is to introduce dog to haveing rope around flank and giving to it, and not coming back to handler as he's in front. When you overlay the ecoller on flank be sure to use lowes setting he "feels". KEEP BIRDS out of it till later.

 

[jetjockey]

Im aware why they use a "whoa" post. But you can do the same thing with a half hitch around the dogs flank on a small check cord (or leash) while going for walks. For most people, combining training with every day activities is much easier. You can teach heel and whoa easily when you are walking your dog. After the dog is collar conditioned, adding the e-collar is a piece of cake.

 

[wesslpointer]

Im aware why they use a "whoa" post. But you can do the same thing with a half hitch around the dogs flank on a small check cord (or leash) while going for walks. For most people, combining training with every day activities is much easier. You can teach heel and whoa easily when you are walking your dog. After the dog is collar conditioned, adding the e-collar is a piece of cake.

You missed my point about not haveing the dog come back to you when you start out. It learns to stand alone. I would bet your trainer does something similar we all do.

 

[jetjockey]

No I didn't. You just don't need a "whoa" post to teach whoa. If the dog is comming back to you when you "whoa" it, then there is a disconnect somewhere in the training. Tons of trainers teach "whoa" without a whoa post. You don't even need a half hitch, but if your going to use the collar around the dogs flank, its a great transition to the stimulation of the collar. Teaching "whoa" is not brain surgery, and there are many ways to do it that all work equally well. The main thing is that "whoa" is an obedience command, and needs to seperate from bird work. All it means is stop, and don't move. If the dog is standing a bird, then it means don't move.

Chuckles

A very easy way to teach whoa is after the dog learns to walk at heel. During a walk with the dog at heel, say the "whoa" command and stop. Give a quick tug on the check cord to get the dog to stop. Then tap it on its head to release it and continue the walk. Do this until the dog learns to stop with you on the "whoa" command. Once the dog understands that "whoa" means stop, you can continue walking a few steps after giving the "whoa" command. If the dog doesn't stop (which it probably won't at first because your still walking a few steps further) pick the dog up and set it back to where the original "whoa" command was given. This is a great time to style the dog up as well by tapping under its head to get the head up, and also stroking the underside of the tail. Give the dog the "whoa" command when you reset the dog, but don't overuse it. It won't take very long before the dog realizes it needs to stop, while you keep walking. After a couple sessions you should be able to walk with the dog, give the command, and it will stop while you are able to walk around without it moving. Once the dog has learned that, you can allow the dog to lead you while not walking at heel. Give the command, and give a tug on the cord. The dog will learn to stop weather its by your side, or out in front. Once the dog has perfected whoa on the check cord, add the collar. But start back with the dog walking at heel. Give the comand, stimulate the dog, and when the dog stops, release the stimulation. The dog will quickly learn to turn the stimulation off by obeying the given command. Then work your way back up until the dog will whoa without the stimulation, and only stimulate the dog when it doesn't obey the command. Once the dog is 100%, take the check cord off and start all over again with just the e-collar. It doesn't take very much time if done right, and your dog will learn to stop whenever it hears the whoa command, no matter how far away it is. Just make sure it always wear's the collar, you never want to give a command you can't reinforce with either the check cord, or the e-collar.

 

[BritChaser]

I taught my dog to whoa on our morning leash walks and on weekends using a check cord with a spike collar. I taught whoa and hand signals with the check cord simultaneously. When the dog was near the end of the cord, I commanded "whoa," paused, and then turned him left or right with the cord while using the hand signal as I walked in that direction.

 

[Shadow]

yes you should use a whoa post- if you want your dog to learn to whoa- "freeze on comand and not move till released"

whoa on comand is a comand that is something taught- the dog is taught to not wiggle- not wiggle untill released- it is something to actually see- it is something very few bird dogs have down pat in the bird field

 

[birdshooter]

I taught my dog to whoa on our morning leash walks and on weekends using a check cord with a spike collar. I taught whoa and hand signals with the check cord simultaneously. When the dog was near the end of the cord, I commanded "whoa," paused, and then turned him left or right with the cord while using the hand signal as I walked in that direction.

This is basically how i taught whoa and it worked very well. However, instead of a spike collar i used the "Wonder Lead" made famous by Delmar Smith. It's basically a stiff rope (think lariat) with a slip ring that cinches down. Once you have the command down you overlay with the e-collar using with both the wonder lead and collar simultaneously, eventually weaning off the lead altogether.

It's a very effective tool for teaching not only Whoa, but healing as well.
Here's what it looks like: http://www.gundogsupply.com/wonleadbydel.html

 

[BritChaser]

This is basically how i taught whoa and it worked very well. However, instead of a spike collar i used the "Wonder Lead" made famous by Delmar Smith. It's basically a stiff rope (think lariat) with a slip ring that cinches down. Once you have the command down you overlay with the e-collar using with both the wonder lead and collar simultaneously, eventually weaning off the lead altogether.

It's a very effective tool for teaching not only Whoa, but healing as well.
Here's what it looks like: http://www.gundogsupply.com/wonleadbydel.html

Good post. Thanks for the info.

 

[Chuckles]

I have already gotten him to a point where he knows what woah means, using the methods I describe. My problem is that when I woah him from a long distance he isn't getting it and when I stim him (I use the e-collar almost every time he is off leash and he understands it) he is visibly scared - I think because he is usually being corrected and somehow he doesn't get that moving is "Wrong" he knows I want him to stand still with a Woah command but he basically cowers when I stim him after he disobeys Woah. I don't know if I should step back to a woah post or if that wouldn't work either because he knows woah at close distance.

I think my plan will be to woah at close distance and vibrate from the moment I say Woah to the moment he stops (if it is 1/2 or 1 second) and then I can expand that to longer distance and more distraction Woahs.

Thanks for the help guys - as always

 

[Shadow]

counting on the ecollar on whoa- such as back the other dog is a very touchy thing- most with good solid pointing dogs don't use WHOA except at close range- and that is very seldom- just to freeze an unsure dog-

yes- I have a Britt that will freeze at Whoa- from a full blown run- I have used it maybe twice a season

I've hunted 3-4 Britt's together for some 20 years- I can count on one hand when I've used the comand WHOA while hunting a season

what exactly is the use of whoa- to steady an unsure pointing dog-

most good pointing dogs don't move or twitch when they have locked on a bird- whoa isn't necessary

 

[Chuckles]

I mainly want it to help him be steady to wing as well as honor a point, not so much to make his point more rigid

 

[Lula's boss]

Lots of good responses and suggestions. One thing you may want to consider is how you initially taught whoa. In your first post you described treating your dog after you released him. Essentially you were rewarding the dog for releasing, and you may now see confusion on the dog's part being played out in his aversive reaction to e collar correction after he moved. Before, the dog was being rewarded for being released, now he is being shocked when he self releases. Any treats and/or praise should have come while the dog was standing still, that is while the dog was giving the desired behavior. This whole issue could just be a matter of timing and could be corrected by revisiting basic yard work with proper and consistent timing of praise.

 

[Shadow]

Lots of good responses and suggestions. One thing you may want to consider is how you initially taught whoa. In your first post you described treating your dog after you released him. Essentially you were rewarding the dog for releasing, and you may now see confusion on the dog's part being played out in his aversive reaction to e collar correction after he moved. Before, the dog was being rewarded for being released, now he is being shocked when he self releases. Any treats and/or praise should have come while the dog was standing still, that is while the dog was giving the desired behavior. This whole issue could just be a matter of timing and could be corrected by revisiting basic yard work with proper and consistent timing of praise.

that's a good statement

another way is to run a soft honoring dog with a real sure fire pointer and backer- together alot- and help both to understand what it's all about and why- you don't necessarily need birds- don't think you really need the ecollar-
if the soft backer is young and hasn't been busting in on points another dog has it works

I hunted quite a bit with a guy who used the ecollar for to many reasons- soon as the dog realized he wasn't in sight that dog would steal points or bust in and flush- never a problem as long as I stayed far away- he never did quite figure that out