Range for a Kansas Bird Dog?

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Wingmaster

New member
After some research I realize that this is a controversial subject, but I wanted to your thoughts on range for a pointing bird dog in Kansas.

I have a 3yr old GSP, and naturally she likes like to range out pretty far. Sometimes she stays close, but most of the time she works out to about 150yrds and more if she can still see me. She holds points on birds very well, as I have never seen her jump in and "bump" a bird before, however I find that many birds these last few years are not holding tight and will flush right when she goes on point and sometimes just before (and at times like these that sucks because many times those are the only birds seen that day). I think this upsets my hunting buddies because most of them have close working dogs, and this does not seem to be a problem for them.

She has a great nose, strong pry drive, and she is fast. To be honestly if I just shut up and let her do her thing she always finds the birds, problem is many times I am not even getting a shot off. So what do you think, let her run or try and bring her back in a little closer? She is my first bird dog and I want to do what is best for the long term.
 
Two things IMO can dictate range in any one particular dog. Breeding, if the dog is out of a lineage of dogs that were bred to run big such as field trials then naturally those puppies will most likely have the same tendencies. Next is the available cover. Open short cover (think short grass prairies) the dogs will naturally range out farther than dense or smaller tracts of heavy cover.

So when selecting a breeder you need to find out these things in advance and select a breeder and breeding that fits your style. I will say it's easier to bring a dog in than to push one out that will not range far at all. Typically a dog that ranges a little more will find more birds simply because they are covering more ground, so range is what your comfortable with.
 
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Wingmaster said:
To be honestly if I just shut up and let her do her thing she always finds the birds, problem is many times I am not even getting a shot off.
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Constantly barking commands at a dog when they are actively hunting or trying to make game is counterproductive. You are essentially breaking their focus. The key will be training the dog to be staunch once on point and not move till you get there. Sometimes easier said than done, but that's the jist of it. Train then trust the dog and your training. Pheasants are what they are and some will hold and some will not and the cover often dictates that. But they will also teach a dog how close he can get before "game over". If Pheasants have room to run with no way of blocking them from doing so, than even the most polished dog will have trouble with those birds. The key will always be to get the birds into cover where the dog can pin them so that the bird thinks that sitting and waiting till you go by is the better option.
 
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Kansas is no different than any other state with regard to how far your dog ranges. In my opinion, it's a matter of taste. Personally, if I can see my dogs they're too close. I find most prefer a dog that is very close ranging. It is my opinion that those who desire close ranging dogs want to be close enough to shoot their dog's mistakes.

As earlier stated, your dog has a natural range. It's pretty tough to push one out, and it's a pain to hunt with somebody that hacks a dog in. Ultimately, your own suggestion is probably best. Keep your mouth closed and let the dog do it's thing. As long as she knows she's made an error when the bird is bumped (a point followed by a flush is a first cousin to a bump) and not doing it on purpose, I wouldn't worry about it. The dog will learn. Only wild birds can make a wild bird dog.

Also, one way to avoid your buddies being frustrated with your dog is to hunt with somebody who understands that it's more important to work with a young dog than to kill birds. This usually means that you're hunting with a person who has spent some time (and patience) working with dogs in the field.

Based on your description, it sounds like a nice dog in the making.

Point!
 
Point! is correct for a great number of people. They think that those birds that didn't hold at a distance are birds that they could have shot if the dog had been in gun range. But with a pointing dog, you should not shot at birds that are not pointed.

But I can tell you that 150 yards in not way out there. My younger setter is 3 to 5 times that far out.

However, that farther out the dogs is the longer it takes you to get to the point, and the more time the bird has to move. But as the dogs get more experience the better they are at holding the bird and also relocating birds.

From what you described, your dog may be getting a little too close. At 3 yo its still pretty young.

One thing that I would add, guys that are used to shooting everything that comes up in range, sometimes think that if that bird hadn't flushed out of range they would have been able to get a shot, when I believe that most of those runners would have been long gone and never seen if the dog hadn't found it at distance.
 
I agree with Steve and point.

What's the fun of having a pointing dog if your gonna shoot everything that comes up pointed or not. I've passed on tons of birds because they were either not pointer or the dog was creeping ect. Id rather everything be perfect and kill one bird than everything be sloppy and kill a limit. It's about the dog work for me.

Let your dog figure it's range. My two year olds still have yet to figure out how close or far to hunt. When I hunt the flint hills I love it when they are out there 500 yards, all except the walk to them.

Last year I had a point at over 300 yards, dog over the hill out of sight. By the time I got to him he was literally surrounded by quail. He held his point the entire time and never moved. Your dog will learn it and also settle into a range accordingly.

If your buddies wanna hunt over pointing dogs who flush birds I'd seriously just go alone.

And point is right it takes wild birds to make a wild bird dog. Setternuts best advice ever to me was keep taking them and getting them into birds they will figure it out in short order.
 
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Should be a better year for quail. A runner will find more coveys unless you are willing to walk your bootlicker to every bit of cover.

I have one britt that is almost always is within 50 yards. My runner gets out 2-300 yards. Love this combo. Works well when hunting alone.

If hunting with others that do not like runners, I will take the edge where the runner will not flush birds in front of others.

Do not have much cover. Birds are hunted a lot. Pheasants learn to run. Dawn is a good time to hunt with a runner on hunter wise roosters. There are no long pheasant scent trails when the sun comes up. Pheasant hunt mornings and quail hunt afternoons. Scent trails help when quail hunting.
 
Thank you all for your replies and advice. So this is a bit of a newbie question, but do you let a dog the ranges out work a field differently than one that works close? if I let my dog range out (as seems to be the consensus on this board) should I just kind of follow her where she wants to go with minimal corrections and direction commands from me? Do I just need to have more trust in her?

I want to make sure I cover the whole field, but it seems that when I make her go in the direction I want her to work as opposed to the direction she wants to go, it takes quite a bit of voice or whistle commands, and worry that this is what is spooking the birds and causing them to jump early???
 
This can easily be a "third rail" topic. Everyone hunts birds for their own reasons. I hunt alone a little, but I enjoy it more with others. Thus my dog has to get along well with other dogs and my hunting partners have to appreciate (or at least tolerate) my dog's style, and vice versa.

It is irritating to hunt with a guy who's always hacking on his dog, but it's equally frustrating to hunt with a guy who's dog has hunted and bumped the entire field when we're 100 yards in. Perhaps I haven't been fortunate enough to hunt with a dog who can hunt effectively at extended ranges, but I've certainly hunted with many dogs that try to do so and fail. Hunting for a dog is also very frustrating.

Do I shoot bumped birds? Absolutely. Sometimes that can be accurately described as shooting my dog's mistakes, sometimes not. I'm going to do it anyway.

In the end it's not about what's right, what's wrong, what's better, what's worse, etc. It's about what you want. If hunting with your existing hunting buddies is your priority, then that might imply a particular answer. If you like the way she hunts and that's more important to you than continuing to hunt with your buddies, then perhaps a different course of action is in order.
 
Wingmaster said:
I want to make sure I cover the whole field, but it seems that when I make her go in the direction I want her to work as opposed to the direction she wants to go.
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Perhaps that is part of the problem. I'm assuming were talking about Phez here as others have mentioned Quail in there replies.

If you read your dog correctly you will know when she's making scent, working a bird or even dealing with a runner. I would not want to call my dog off a potential bird in that circumstance just to go another direction. Sometimes you have to trust the dog and go where THEY want to go because they know more than we do. I know it can be tough when hunting with others as the group may all be driving in one direction, but the dog knows where the birds are or where they're heading, we don't.
 
I like the way your dog hunts, about like my Brit. In Kansas, I would always want a ranging pointer, especially when hunting solo or with one buddy. Question is, why are birds well-pointed not holding? Is she wearing a collar that makes noise when she goes on point? Are you and your companions noisy? -lots of beepers, whistling, yelling, etc. Other possible factors: Some years ago an old timer in Hill City with a few decades of pheasant hunting experience told me that when pheasant numbers are down as they are now, they are jumpier and prone to flushing out of range. Another possible factor is scanty cover (due to drought) in which the bird does not feel well hidden and will not hold.
 
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BritChaser said:
I like the way your dog hunts, about like my Brit. In Kansas, I would always want a ranging pointer, especially when hunting solo or with one buddy. Question is, why are birds well-pointed not holding? Is she wearing a collar that makes noise when she goes on point? Are you and your companions noisy? -lots of beepers, whistling, yelling, etc. Other possible factors: Some years ago an old timer in Hill City with a few decades of pheasant hunting experience told me that when pheasant numbers are down as they are now, they are alot jumpier and prone to flushing out of range. Another possible factor is scanty cover (due to drought) in which the bird does not feel hidden and will not hold.
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I think it is combination of all of these things. In all honesty I think I am just to loud. She is trained to a whistle but I think switching to a silent whistle will help but I have not tried yet. I have also used a bell and now a beeper collar to keep track of her because I have lost track of her before which sucks, and on the preserve's this works fine, as the birds sit tight regardless, but not the wild birds. I think if just switch to use the beeper on point mode only that might help.

I just hate losing her and I don't want to call her off a sent or point when I can't see her. The birds certainly seem more jumpy these last few years. Hunting without a dog in the past I use to have birds flush at my feet all the time. Now I cant seem to get within 20 yards of a wild bird even on point. The cover is not great and there have not been a lot of young dumb ones around. They are definitely jumpy, and that's why I think I just need to go silent and hope I don't loose her.
 
The range thing really depends on what you are hunting, what type of cover, and what you like,

If you are in a quarter section of wheat stubble, you are not going to do as well with a close working dog as you will with one that will range out.

For Quail, more range is better in my book, on pheasants, if you are heading to points at 5-600 yards, the dog better be experience in relocating, because the birds will have moved much of the time, while you are trying to get there.

My best pheasant dog Ace, who I just lost, worked out to around 250 yards. He would stay on point until I released him, and then he would relocate and hold them. It was really fun.
 
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Your dog wants to stay with you. If you call and whistle a lot, she will know where you are. She is not worried; she knows where you are and that you are waiting. When you are quiet, you are forcing her to look for you. A good way to change this is hide and seek. You hide and she seeks. Also if you can let her inside with you before hunting, she will tend to care where you are more. In the field, when she sees you, walk in the direction you want her to go. Buy a hawk screamer. If you have to let her know where you are, use hawk screams. The hawk screams will tend to scare the birds to not fly or run. Hawk screams are not a come command.

Buy an Astro. You will know when a dog goes on point and can get there quickly. I was stressed before the Astro. Would not hunt without it now.
 
range

lots of advice, however without being on the scene with you, but from what you are saying, maybe you are in search of a problem. give the dog a break, seems like it is hunting and it is your job to hunt with it. as far as hunting buddies not liking the good along with the bad, at least in their eyes, leave them home, you will never have a great time in the field worrying about what you friends think your dog should be doing, let em' get their own dog. you as a hunter will never likely know what the dog knows in any particular field, relax, trust it and if you have too, hunt alone

cheers
 
duckn66 said:
Whoa back up steve! You lost Ace?
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Yes, on our way up to Montana, in my buddies truck. Most likely heat.
Still kicking myself, sick about it. Should never happen if you are protecting your dog, but it did.

We were 4 hours away from MT and turn around and drove straight back, so I could bury him at the farm.
 
Oh man Steve I am so sorry to hear that. I never met that dog but sure liked the looks of him in the photos you would post. Always look forward to your videos and pics.

Well I know it really doesn't help much but I think I may have lost a nice Elhew bred female years and years ago to the cold. I can't be for certain but in my mind I know that is what it was. I just didn't think it was that cold out and she was a little older.

I guess with that always in the back of my mind is why nowadays I am so very,very, overly careful with the cold. I have my hound heaters running right now with the dog house doors open so they can stay comfy.

I know from reading on here how well you take care of your dogs and I am sure if you thought it would have been to warm other arrangements would have been made.
 
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