PSA-Loosen up that choke, or get rid of it altogether

Bob Peters

Well-known member
Being I got a late start in life at shotgunning, I've taken every measure to learn about the subject. The following are quotations from classic books on the subject by authors Thomas, Brister, and McIntosh. Also a quote via Brown from a book on pheasant hunting. It's easy to see that in most situations a more open bore is preferable to one that is more constricted. These various texts were published in the 60s 70s and 90s. For that reason they mainly deal with lead shot, although steel is discussed in some of these books as well. Needless to say if you're shooting an one-eighth oz. load of #22 tss through a .410 at 1900fps you need to write your own book, because tungsten wasn't much discussed in concern to shot pellets then.

"To see the advantages of a larger pattern, consider that choke is in one sense a function of distance, and its purpose is to keep the shot swarm smaller in diameter at greater range. We still define degrees of choke according to the number of pellets that print inside a thirty-inch circle at forty yards. If your favorite quail gun will put half its shot in that circle at that distance, you'd say it had an IC choke and call it a damn good quail gun. And it would be-at forty yards. At fifteen or twenty yards, it's throwing a pattern scarcely larger than a dinner plate, a pattern so dense that a well-centered bird is likely to disappear in a pink mist; so small that a tiny error in gun-pointing means a clean miss. For all practical purposes you're shooting your quail with a full-choke gun. But don't you need the choke for all those forty-yard birds? There are two answers to this. First, if you're an average upland hunter and an average shot, you don't shoot at many forty-yard birds, and you hit only a fraction of these. By far the majority of upland birds bagged in the United States die within twenty-five yards of the gun."

Michael McIntosh, Shotguns and Shooting P. 119


"In summary, IC is the choke to choose if you're selecting a pheasant gun. It will deliver killing patterns in 12, 16, and 20 gauge guns with standard loads."

Larry Brown, From a Pheasant Hunter's Notebook P. 64


"The improved-cylinder pattern, which exposes a higher percentage of its pellets to atmospheric resistance at the muzzle, spreads faster and in more direct ratio to distance[...] the full choke stays tight, then spreads out suddenly, something like the bell of a trumpet, while IC spreads out as a rather constant cone. [...] The significance is that at the distances at which much game is killed, between 20 and 38 yards, the improved cylinder is at its best, offering adequate killing density but at the same time a nice, broad spread to give the shooter more margin for error. Within that same critical yardage the full choke is mostly a tight cluster of center pellets surrounded by a ragged fringe. The full choke's reign of superiority is considerably shorter in useful yards than the IC's. Between 40 and 50 yards, where the full choke shines, even the best of patterns begin to undergo a number of ills... By 55 yards, with ordinary hunting loads, the full choke has become less efficient than the improved cylinder at 40. [...] So what we have here is one choke that is quite deadly for a distance of about 18 yards (from 20 to about 38 with most hunting loads in a 12 gauge) and another that shines for 10 yards or so with the same ordinary load. Moreover, in the improved cylinder's favor, the 18 yards or so yards where it is best happen to be the very ones where most hunters can, and do, take their game."

Bob Brister, Shotgunning The Art and the Science Pgs. 127-129


"Most game[ ] is shot at moderate ranges-say, 25 to 35 yards. ; and at such ranges open-bored guns are well capable of delivering killing patterns. By using heavily choked guns for such work, there-fore, the tendency, taking one shot with another, is to put an unnecessary amount of lead into birds killed with accurately aimed shots, and to miss others which might have been killed by the wider-spreading pattern of an open-bored barrel."

Gough Thomas's Gun Book P. 48


Below the author is discussing findings from a book titled "The Mysteries of Shotgun Patterns" by Oberfell and Thompson

"They find that, for a given number of pellet strikes, the merit-rating of the true cylinder pattern is highest. Thus, a true cylinder makes as dense a pattern at 30 yds. as a half-choke[Mod] at 40; but it will be a better-quality pattern, other things being equal, with fewer patches and less central concentration, and in practical effectiveness will have less than its seeming or nominal disadvantage in respect of range.

Gough Thomas's Gun Book P.160
 
I use IC in my Benelli Ultralight 12, as well as my Beretta AL 391 20…most of my doubles are Skt1/Skt2. Works great for me…mostly shooting lead #5…I don’t shoot that spendy, high-velocity stuff…mostly around 1200-1250 fps. Most birds I shoot are 15-40 yards. I hunt by myself a lot, or with one guy, and we split up but are on the same property. I shoot lots of birds under 20 yards….many, many past 40, even 50…but I think it makes sense to be well prepared for the shots that occur frequently and that you’re routinely capable of making…30 yards, +/-. I like light guns…6 lb, +/-…I feel like I’m getting on birds more quickly than I might with a heavier gun. I watch others shoot at birds, sometimes it seems it takes forever for them to shoot. I routinely hear them bitch about the safety, or the gun not mounting right, or the like…the more you use a gun, and become one with it, the better.
 
I've said it here before, but I firmly believe most peoples guns are over choked. I used to shoot a modified in my terms and early 20s and struggled at times. I've been shooting nothing but improved for the last 12 years and noticed a definite increase in shooting percentage once I opened up my choke.
 
And if you’re using non-tox some of the time, it may pattern tighter…steel does. I bought some hevi-shot #6 from a friend, he commented that it patterns tight…used that ammo on a WPA last trip, shot a crosser at about 40…he landed on a snow drift, looked hard hit, but I shot again as he layer there quivering. Happy to have had the chance to safely shoot him again.
 
I dont see why you are so against patterning? Theres no point in reading articles about someones opinion 30-60 years ago. Shells are completely different these days. Just pattern your dang gun and see. When you see holes the size of a basketball, youll go tighter on the choke. I really dont see why all these posts about choking are so necessary, just take 5 minutes and pattern your gun.

One day at the pattern board will show you that open vs tight choke does not help/hurt you hit the bird.. we are talking inches size difference in a circular pattern, not enough to get that extra kill on a 3lb bird. The difference it makes is if your bird is going to be crippled with a couple hits, dead, or blown to hamburger.
 
I dont see why you are so against patterning? Theres no point in reading articles about someones opinion 30-60 years ago. Shells are completely different these days. Just pattern your dang gun and see. When you see holes the size of a basketball, youll go tighter on the choke. I really dont see why all these posts about choking are so necessary, just take 5 minutes and pattern your gun.

One day at the pattern board will show you that open vs tight choke does not help/hurt you hit the bird.. we are talking inches size difference in a circular pattern, not enough to get that extra kill on a 3lb bird. The difference it makes is if your bird is going to be crippled with a couple hits, dead, or blown to hamburger.
I’ve done a good bit of patterning…agree, it’s helpful. I don’t run right out to pattern shells that I acquire, especially a few boxes. I’m very happy and content with the choke choices I make…kill lots of birds every year, north of 100, especially when including early prairie birds…don’t seem to run into many strange results. Shooting a decent amount preseason seems to provide some decent intel as well. Whatever works…
 
I’ve done a good bit of patterning…agree, it’s helpful. I don’t run right out to pattern shells that I acquire, especially a few boxes. I’m very happy and content with the choke choices I make…kill lots of birds every year, north of 100, especially when including early prairie birds…don’t seem to run into many strange results. Shooting a decent amount preseason seems to provide some decent intel as well. Whatever works…

Most shells are using similar or the same wads these days. There's really only two 12g wads the major euro companies use for field loads, and then you have federal, win, and rem using their own. If one brand patterns good then likely all shells in that brand will be extremely similar. Jumping from euro to american is a crap shoot. But fiocchi/kent/rio are all extremely similar and rarely will you see one pattern good and another bad. Once you find a good pattern, its reasonable to assume similar shells will be good enough too.

It all goes back to if you can shoot or not... Usually the people chasing "what choke do i need???" Are trying to hit more birds, and the choke isnt going to do that. Time at the trap range does that. When it comes to hits vs misses, its the Indian not the arrow.
 
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It’s February and I’m glad Bob created this thread. Not a lot going on. Fun to bs about this stuff. Reflecting on the season, which just wrapped up for me 1/26, I was happy with how things went…shot quite well, birds fell, dogs did their part. This is superfluous but enjoyable banter…do what works for you. 🍺👍🥳
 
I dont see why you are so against patterning? Theres no point in reading articles about someones opinion 30-60 years ago. Shells are completely different these days. Just pattern your dang gun and see. When you see holes the size of a basketball, youll go tighter on the choke. I really dont see why all these posts about choking are so necessary, just take 5 minutes and pattern your gun.

One day at the pattern board will show you that open vs tight choke does not help/hurt you hit the bird.. we are talking inches size difference in a circular pattern, not enough to get that extra kill on a 3lb bird. The difference it makes is if your bird is going to be crippled with a couple hits, dead, or blown to hamburger.
I agree with you that patterning really helps to figure out what's going on. So many things can be going wrong when a hunter is trying to figure out why they are missing or only crippling birds. It could be a horrible pattern, or a gun/mount problem causing big POI missing.

I know when I was younger and was hitting too many cripples, I tried a lot like going to bigger shells and increasing choke to increase killing them, but that really does just increase the cripple radius while increasing blown to hamburgers. I think theres a good chance most people are overgunned and also overchoked. Overgunned causes flinching and much worse shots, overchoked causes the either crippled or hamburger effect.

If anyone is struggling with cripples or misses. I would first take the gun to the pattern board to confirm the gun and ammo is doing what it should. From there just take it out on clays as often as you can. If you are still doing bad, it could be a bad fitting gun. Borrow someone else's a few times and see if things change.
 
If anyone is struggling with cripples or misses. I would first take the gun to the pattern board to confirm the gun and ammo is doing what it should. From there just take it out on clays as often as you can. If you are still doing bad, it could be a bad fitting gun. Borrow someone else's a few times and see if things change.

100%. And if all else fails, find a local shooting coach. He/she will check gun fit, hold, swing, everything along with giving you tips at the range. Check local shooting clubs and see if they have a local coach they recommend. Some even have a package deal worked out with the club, where you get an hour lesson, gun fitting/coaching, then you go shoot x-amount of trap/skeet/clays and he/she helps you along the way. Shooting is shooting, if you can perfect it at the range it will crossover into hunting.

Dont see it as an insult of being a bad shot and needing a coach, think of it as an investment to improve shooting. I think almost everyone can benefit from this, myself included. I did it about 5 years ago and it really helped, the guy who helped me wasnt a professional though but he knew his stuff.
 
I dont see why you are so against patterning? Theres no point in reading articles about someones opinion 30-60 years ago. Shells are completely different these days. Just pattern your dang gun and see. When you see holes the size of a basketball, youll go tighter on the choke. I really dont see why all these posts about choking are so necessary, just take 5 minutes and pattern your gun.

One day at the pattern board will show you that open vs tight choke does not help/hurt you hit the bird.. we are talking inches size difference in a circular pattern, not enough to get that extra kill on a 3lb bird. The difference it makes is if your bird is going to be crippled with a couple hits, dead, or blown to hamburger.
Where did I say I was against patterning? And I definitely do think there is a point in reading books about shotgun theory. Bob Brister shot more patterns and did more experiments with shotguns than anyone I can think of. I'd love to know of someone who has shot more. Gough Thomas was an English engineer and when you read his books it's clear his knowledge of guns and shooting is above and beyond the average shooter. I'm not saying these guys are infallible, but their books will make you think and increase your knowledge. Concerning lead shells, they have improved over time, but it's not an apples and bananas difference. Brister was doing tests with shells containing modern plastic wads/shotcups, shot with more vs. less antimony, etc. He did a deep dive into many variables. To write off his entire body of work because it was published some 40 years ago is ignorant.
 
I have generally taken a path of least resistance approach to most of this stuff; been hunting a lot for the past 31 seasons. Mainly 2 guns, a Montefeltro for 23 years, and a Benelli Ultralight the past 8. Both 12 gauges. IC chokes 97% of the time. Lead #5 shot 95% of the time, many different brands…always 2 3/4”, usually 1 1/4 oz, around 1200-1250 fps. Will hunt with a double gun now and again…5-10% of the time? Maybe more…always pretty open choked. I’ve never run into situations where the gun/choke/ammo trifecta wasn’t working…yes, some misses now and again. Yes, some cripples…I shoot at hit birds a 2nd time if I safely can. If I had extra time to spend, I’d probably nurture landowner relationships before doing a deep dive into my patterns…just me. Or, shoot more clays. I pattern my guns when I acquire them to know the pattern ends up where it’s supposed to be. If things weren’t working for me, I’d probably do more patterning. I hunted sharpies, huns, pheasants about 40 days this year, probably shot 120+ birds, nothing really seemed out of whack…my early prairie hunting was mainly done with 20’s/28’s and #6 lead, a bit of #7.5 lead…mostly skt1/skt2 chokes, some IC/M. I’ve already talked about my pheasant set ups. Things worked well, my misses oftentimes were able to be self-diagnosed…operator errors of various types. Not many “gimme’s” got away…certainly a few. I don’t reload. I don’t buy expensive shells…currently, I try to stay under $15/box for standard lead hunting loads, 12/16/20.
 
Where did I say I was against patterning? And I definitely do think there is a point in reading books about shotgun theory. Bob Brister shot more patterns and did more experiments with shotguns than anyone I can think of. I'd love to know of someone who has shot more. Gough Thomas was an English engineer and when you read his books it's clear his knowledge of guns and shooting is above and beyond the average shooter. I'm not saying these guys are infallible, but their books will make you think and increase your knowledge. Concerning lead shells, they have improved over time, but it's not an apples and bananas difference. Brister was doing tests with shells containing modern plastic wads/shotcups, shot with more vs. less antimony, etc. He did a deep dive into many variables. To write off his entire body of work because it was published some 40 years ago is ignorant.

In at least 3 threads where i told you to pattern your gun, and you reply with "maybe i will take a piece of cardboard out one of these days".

There are new wads in factory shells as of the last 5 years.. 40 year old plastic is not the same as todays plastic, wad designs are not the same in "most" hunting loads. Advancements were made, and if you have ever done any extensive patterning you would know how one simple change can go from a lights out pattern to shooting a blunderbuss. The fact you take any article regarding choke/patterning from +10 years ago as even remotely applicable in today's shotgunning is proof to me you dont pattern.

We could also go into the advancements in screw in chokes within the last 20 years, both factory and aftermarket, but thats a whole new ballgame. Two years ago carlsons made even more advancements with the white wing and bone buster chokes, changed several of my guns to them after testing.

Like i said, if you think that article actually has any relevance beyond providing false confidence to those who dont pattern and shoot open chokes in todays shotgunning.. well i dont know what more to say. Should probably give up and say nothing.
 
Big K

I've done some patterning in terms of POI/POA and also with turkey loads. I've never patterned a game load for pheasants, it's not allowed at the gun clubs I'm in. That said I've never been against patterning like you claimed.

The reason I posted those excerpts from books is to show that at the range the vast majority of upland birds are taken is at a yardage more conducive to open chokes considering your shooting over an ounce of shot. This is not a thread about a shooters ability, although that's another interesting topic. Choke changing isn't magic and won't make you a better shooter. Considering you're a competent field shot the more open choke provides a greater margin of error at the most common distances game is taken. Pretty simple concept.
 
Big K
Considering you're a competent field shot the more open choke provides a greater margin of error at the most common distances game is taken. Pretty simple concept.

See, that right there is what I am talking about. Its a simple concept in the mind, but patterning will show that it is not the case. Well i guess TECHNICALLY it is the case, but not practically. Between an IC and Mod we are talking MAYBE an extra inch of useable pattern diameter in the core. If you pattern a pheasant load you would see this and know not to spread that "obvious" wives tale.

If that inch makes the difference, you either caught just the head out front or just the very tail end of the body. (Or wing tips or breast meat) Either case you missed the center of the pattern by just under 2 feet and 3 out of 4 locations (high, low, behind) resulted in a cripple... And you reduced your success rate on going away shots by reducing the core. Shouldnt be shooting a wider pattern to hopefully get a cripple.

When you finally pattern a game load, youll see that the core is the killing part of the pattern and the fringe is what you will extend with more open chokes (pellets in the core move to the fringe). The fringe is where the cripples come from because of the lack of pellet density. The fringe (outer 8" to foot) of most open choke pheasant patterns ive shot will result in one pellet every 5-6 inches, about the size of your fist. If you want to extend this part of your pattern to get more hits with a more open choke, go for it... Your dogs will love chasing the hopping/flapping birds.

By the way, bob, its obvious from your posts just this year that you have never patterned a pheasant shell. You didnt have to tell me. The fact you keep posting all this "good info" and ask for shell recommendions, but havent taken the time to pattern a shell leads me to believe you do not view it as necessary and thus are against it. Every club and range around me have a pattern area, you just have to ask. All iowa dnr ranges that i have been to allow it. I refuse to believe you have nowhere near you to pattern.
 
I have generally taken a path of least resistance approach to most of this stuff; been hunting a lot for the past 31 seasons. Mainly 2 guns, a Montefeltro for 23 years, and a Benelli Ultralight the past 8. Both 12 gauges. IC chokes 97% of the time. Lead #5 shot 95% of the time, many different brands…always 2 3/4”, usually 1 1/4 oz, around 1200-1250 fps. Will hunt with a double gun now and again…5-10% of the time? Maybe more…always pretty open choked. I’ve never run into situations where the gun/choke/ammo trifecta wasn’t working…yes, some misses now and again. Yes, some cripples…I shoot at hit birds a 2nd time if I safely can. If I had extra time to spend, I’d probably nurture landowner relationships before doing a deep dive into my patterns…just me. Or, shoot more clays. I pattern my guns when I acquire them to know the pattern ends up where it’s supposed to be. If things weren’t working for me, I’d probably do more patterning. I hunted sharpies, huns, pheasants about 40 days this year, probably shot 120+ birds, nothing really seemed out of whack…my early prairie hunting was mainly done with 20’s/28’s and #6 lead, a bit of #7.5 lead…mostly skt1/skt2 chokes, some IC/M. I’ve already talked about my pheasant set ups. Things worked well, my misses oftentimes were able to be self-diagnosed…operator errors of various types. Not many “gimme’s” got away…certainly a few. I don’t reload. I don’t buy expensive shells…currently, I try to stay under $15/box for standard lead hunting loads, 12/16/20.
You just described my choice in guns, loads, and choke tubes to a tee! Except I haven't bought an Ultralight (yet). I find something that works and stick with it.

I have played around a lot more patterning my waterfowl gun. And what I learned was the differences between shells, and extended tubes etc was so insignificant that just shooting a lot did more for me than the differences between Fiochi, kent, or whatever brand shell/chock tube.

Now POI/POA are a whole different story. This is where the big gains were made for me. The Monte was spot on and always killed birds, the SBE was terrible but a couple shim changes and its a killer too.
 
A little off topic but I’ve been looking at o/u’s to shave a little bit of weight and ran across the fabarm l4s semi. It’s a nice looking gun except for the l4s stamped on the receiver . 1/4lb lighter than my m2 and my affinity. Gas gun that’s supposed to pattern fantastic. Rear safety. Randy Waksman’s sure a fanboy. If I can find a dealer may end up trading off my wood stocked affinity
 
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