Midwest lab breeders

[Chestle]

Well guess I read after the edit. If British is what you want then here is where you want to look.

http://www.britlabs.com/

My son has one of Haynes labs. She's 55 pounds and compact. She was the smallest in her litter and that's what my son was looking to find. Good disposition with a lot of drive. A LOT of drive.

Haynes might have some litters that would produce a smallish male. it would be worth a call.

 

[westksbowhunter]

I believe you also stipulated a male Lab, did you not?



As you can see, he did say British lab. Not your fault; editing posts causes this stuff. Some BBS put a time limit on how long after the post you can edit.

As I said above, IIRC, he also wanted a male Lab. I think 50-60 pound males are a lot less common, don't you agree?

Please accept my apology. He must have edited out the male part as well.

 

[westksbowhunter]

My son has one of Haynes labs. She's 55 pounds and compact. She was the smallest in her litter and that's what my son was looking to find. Good disposition with a lot of drive. A LOT of drive.

Haynes might have some litters that would produce a smallish male. it would be worth a call.

I would think a smaller male would be something that Haynes could provide. I never look at the appearance of a dog to see if it is big or small. Instead I want a dog with a big heart so desire is the only place size matters.

 

[Chestle]

As for Milner's training style:

A lot of "knowledgeable" retriever people don't like him because he doesn't use an E-collar and he doesn't force fetch. Those two right there make him anathema to a lot of "knowledgeable" retriever people.

Further, he is very much in the British style of training. Again, a lot of "knowledgeable" people don't think much of British training methods. For example Milner doesn't think a dead straight line out and back into freezing water is always the best way to retrieve. If running the bank is faster to a shorter swim and less tiresome for the dog, he's quite happy with a dog running the bank. This again earns him the disrespect of "knowledgeable" retriever people. British training handles to the area of the fall and then the dog is expected to use his innate talents to find the bird. This again is pretty much out of line with American methods used by "knowledgeable" retriever people.

Lastly, he got into clicker training. I'm thinking that is not a well accepted method for "knowledgeable" retriever people.

I will say I don't agree with all of his precepts but I learn something from everyone I train with or read their books or watch their videos. I think we all find our own style of what works for us.

YMMV.

 

[Chestle]

Please accept my apology. He must have edited out the male part as well.

No problem, my friend. It's just electronic ink and I'm pretty thick skinned.

Additionally, we're all here because we love/enjoy pretty much the same things. We might argue about this or that but in the end we'd all stand together to protect hunting and hunting dogs.

That's the part that counts.

:cheers:

 

[Chestle]

I would think a smaller male would be something that Haynes could provide. I never look at the appearance of a dog to see if it is big or small. Instead I want a dog with a big heart so desire is the only place size matters.

I've had them big and had them small. My first female American lab was 100 (!) pounds in fighting trim. There was no quit in her though. I loved her so. She could fill up a crate or a pickup seat though. That was 1981.

The Brit-line male that began my current line was 105 in fighting trim. Funny thing about him, he hated dummy work. Oh, he'd do it but he clearly showed his disdain. Put him on live birds though...wow....what a dog! A natural pointer too. He also filled up a crate or pickup seat.

Now my friends and I bred him to a 55 pound short-legged bitch we bought out of Wildrose when Ed Apple had it. She was a retrieving dynamo too; no quit, ever. Out of Theowier Turramurra Teal. She scaled down our line into breed standard though and that was a good thing.

The point, after my wandering around here, is that I have found smaller well-bred labs preferable to larger well-bred labs, all other things being equal. IMO they are just easier to have around in so many ways. Just my .02.

 

[donkey]

I'm actually looking for a female, never said anything about a male...I'm looking for a smaller female, closer to 50 lbs if possible.

Thanks again and sorry for the confusion

 

[Chestle]

I'm actually looking for a female, never said anything about a male...I'm looking for a smaller female, closer to 50 lbs if possible.

Thanks again and sorry for the confusion

My mistake then! My apologies to all.

Yes, should be able to find a female that size with a little research.

 

[westksbowhunter]

I'm actually looking for a female, never said anything about a male...I'm looking for a smaller female, closer to 50 lbs if possible.

Thanks again and sorry for the confusion

I have a 52 lb black female that I will bred to my black male in December. Every dog in her pedigree from top to bottom is titled. My male is from a Master Hunter that is a son of Rik's Risky Raider. You won't find 2 better hunting dogs. And they are good looking dogs. If you are interested in waiting let me know.

 

[david0311]

David0311

As for Milner's training style:

A lot of "knowledgeable" retriever people don't like him because he doesn't use an E-collar and he doesn't force fetch. Those two right there make him anathema to a lot of "knowledgeable" retriever people.

Further, he is very much in the British style of training. Again, a lot of "knowledgeable" people don't think much of British training methods. For example Milner doesn't think a dead straight line out and back into freezing water is always the best way to retrieve. If running the bank is faster to a shorter swim and less tiresome for the dog, he's quite happy with a dog running the bank. This again earns him the disrespect of "knowledgeable" retriever people. British training handles to the area of the fall and then the dog is expected to use his innate talents to find the bird. This again is pretty much out of line with American methods used by "knowledgeable" retriever people.

Lastly, he got into clicker training. I'm thinking that is not a well accepted method for "knowledgeable" retriever people.

I will say I don't agree with all of his precepts but I learn something from everyone I train with or read their books or watch their videos. I think we all find our own style of what works for us.



YMMV.

Guess if you can't teach a dog to take a line--or do a angle entry--and convince people that's what you want --and then --sell them on clicker training you may not be a great --good or adequate--trainer--

BUT-one heck of a KNOWLEDGEABLE--B.S. salesman

 

[Gatzby]

As for Milner's training style:

A lot of "knowledgeable" retriever people don't like him because he doesn't use an E-collar and he doesn't force fetch. Those two right there make him anathema to a lot of "knowledgeable" retriever people.

Further, he is very much in the British style of training. Again, a lot of "knowledgeable" people don't think much of British training methods. For example Milner doesn't think a dead straight line out and back into freezing water is always the best way to retrieve. If running the bank is faster to a shorter swim and less tiresome for the dog, he's quite happy with a dog running the bank. This again earns him the disrespect of "knowledgeable" retriever people. British training handles to the area of the fall and then the dog is expected to use his innate talents to find the bird. This again is pretty much out of line with American methods used by "knowledgeable" retriever people.

Lastly, he got into clicker training. I'm thinking that is not a well accepted method for "knowledgeable" retriever people.



I will say I don't agree with all of his precepts but I learn something from everyone I train with or read their books or watch their videos. I think we all find our own style of what works for us.

YMMV.

I guess bringing a bag of rocks to the duck blind instead teaching a dog to handle is acceptable to some as well. My expectations are significantly higher than Mr Milner's.

If following Milners training program works for you and that is what you should do. But is long as he continues his breeding practices of over 30 litters a year and selling them at astronomical prices because they are canoe labs or some other gobbledygook he comes up with I will do whatever I can to dissuade people from buying from him. When you decide to breed two dogs together you should do it with the intent to better the breed not to line your pocket. The guy is a marketing genius unfortunately he has the scruples and ethics of an alleycat

 

[Chestle]

There's a significant difference in training and expectations between what, for simplicity, I will call "American style" and "British style" retriever training.

People on both sides of that fence have disdain for those on those on the other side. Not all people of course but some. People can be pretty superior about "their" style.

I've been exposed to both. As I young man I was often a bird boy at AKC retriever trials. I know things have changed significantly over the years.

I have also had the pleasure of participating in an English driven shoot in England and watching a dozen labs pick up 400+ birds in 10 drives. I've also trained with a couple of well known British trainers and some that are not as well known but very smart.

The end result for both styles is birds brought to hand.

The difference is in how that is achieved.

Anyone that says the British style/method don't work or are unacceptable is just letting his/her bias show.

Anyone that says the American style/method doesn't work or is unacceptable is just letting his/her bias show.

I actually train a in a mixed style I guess. i take from each that which works best for me and my dogs. I am open to what works, irrespective or origin.

Now, as to Milner once again, he isn't selling at "astronomical" prices. He's getting about the going rate for British line labs with the ancestry he provides. Maybe a little high (or low) but he's pretty close to normal on price for those British bloodlines. For example, his price for a "canoe" pup is within $400 of what my son paid for a TTF pup and the TTF pedigree was not as distinctive as the Duckbill pedigree.

As to how many he breeds, again I don't think he breeds that many "canoe" litters. He does breed a lot of dogs though. Having been there, it had a whiff of the "puppy mill" about it although it was a clean operation and there was plenty of help working the dogs. That is one of my concerns about Duckhill.

Also, the idea that Milner doesn't teach lining is simply wrong. IMO, he teaches there's a time to line and a time to let the dog use its brain. It's up to the handler to recognize different situations.

As for the clicker training, I saw pups there that were doing amazing things at a very young age due to clicker training. I am not saying he trains all aspects solely by use of the clicker. I think (I hesitate to put words in his mouth) that the point is clicker training can be quite useful for some things.