Marbles from a slingshot? Really?

ditchparrot19

ditchparrot19

Member
I've got a Lab puppy for the first time in 13 years and I've been boning up on training through various forms of literature. I've got a book called "Retriever Puppy Training: The Right Start for Hunting" by Cherylon Loveland and Clarice Rutherford. It was published in 2010.

It seems pretty decent as far as the basics go, but I've got some serious questions about chapter 8, entitled "Force to the Pile." At that point they recommend shooting the dog with marbles from a slingshot as it leaves the line to retrieve a mark.

WTF?

They claim this prepares the dog for introduction to the e-collar. But if the e-collar is introduced properly, who needs the effin' marbles? In any case, I ain't doin' it.

They state in the preface that their program foundation was developed by Rex Carr, who's a renowned trainer out here in the West with many, many titles to his credit. I don't know that much about the man, but I am remotely acquainted with a guy who claims to be a protege and close confidant of Carr and this dude's a big-league blowhole. I wouldn't let him within 50 yards of any of my dogs. The guy's mentioned several times how Carr never liked anybody else even laying a hand on one of his dogs, putting that act on par with touching his wife. That's given me a negative impression of Carr, although I don't know the context or even if it's actually true or not.

I know that back in the day trainers propelled all kinds of projectiles at dogs, including stuff through a shotgun. But it's a new age now and it there are techniques available that are a lot more safe and sane.

Has anyone here done any of this "marbling" B.S.? I'd be real interested in learning more about the rationale behind it. Frankly, it just seems stupid to me at the moment and the concept has jaded me toward the rest of the book.
 
Well thats sounds like "force" training procedure! That makes the same sense as the oldtimers shooting their dogs with birdshot because those pointers run to far, or hang on the log chains to slow them up! I think a trainer who or espoused this, might find himself on the bumper of my speeding truck.
 
I don't see this ever happening.
 
The slingshot and marble method was used by famed Lab trainer/breeder Mayo Kellog. An electric clooor has replaced the method in my mind.
 
Lots of old time trainers used sling shots for long distance corrections. This was before E collars. The key is old time. I haven't heard of anyone using them in prep to "force to pile" but I can see how it might help, assuming a guy is really awesome with a sling shot. Stick fetch isn't real commen anymore but it helps a dog understand "force to pile".
All force training is about the dog knowing how to turn pressure off........ FF is the first step, collar fetch, stick fetch, force to pile, and force to water is the most commen order of force conditioning.
Get Bill Hillmans puppy DVD, it's awesome! Be sure to get the most currant version. When through Hillmans use Lardys TRT of Smart Works by Evan Grahm.
Hillman, Graham, and Lardy are all Rex Carr based trainers. Pretty much all successful trainers are Carr based.
Positive only trainers do not use Carr based methods. To understand Carr based trainging do an Internet search for "four quadrants of operant conditioning "
 
sling shots

for you newbies, us ol' farts didn't always have collars that shocked the dog, we had to get their attention other ways and usually discussing the subject with the dog got us no where. the problem with the sling shot was if you were really unlucky you could hit the dog in the eye, that's if you could even hit the mutt. me, I used frozen grapes. one day jesse when told to sit on the other side of the back yard just looked at me like if I want to sit, that was fine but she was far enough away, she didn't have too. well, I beaned her with a grape, did she sit down fast, the next day all I had to do was snap the rubber band, worked wonders, lucky hit maybe

cheers
 
Back before ecollars all sorts of inhumane methods were used. BB guns, sling shots, shotguns. Force to pile with a sling shot is not a method I would ever employ. Please get a good program to follow like Evan Graham's works.
 
duckn66 said:
Back before ecollars all sorts of inhumane methods were used. BB guns, sling shots, shotguns. Force to pile with a sling shot is not a method I would ever employ. Please get a good program to follow like Evan Graham's works.
Click to expand...

don't try and kid me about all the idiots out there that are shocking their dogs without the slightest bit of know how on what training is all about or how to use the collar, for most people the collar is one of the worst things that has ever happened to the dogs, in the right hands it is one of the best, if you can't train without one, you have no business trying to train with one, give the dog a break

cheers
 
Valid point. At the heart of the matter, there are some folks (and I loathe them all), who abuse every training method because they want immediate results, perfect performance, and have NO clue that all this comes with time invested between the handler & the dog. These types are easy to identify -- their dogs show an obvious reluctance to wear a collar. My dogs have always come running to get their respective collars, because I introduced them properly, understood how the collars worked & how to use them, and they have always been associated with fun outings to come. I've also tried every collar setting on myself before ever placing one on one of my dogs. That being said, kindness, praise, & instilling discipline brings-out the best consistent performance from both dogs & hunters. A dog thus trained has no higher desire than to please. My Dad never had a single collar; he taught me what I know about bird dogs/dogs in general; neither of us ever employed abusive techniques. If I saw a guy smack his dog with a slingshot, I'd be inclined to take it away & let him experience a marble or two.
 
Yeah, that would be a training tool that is completely not necessary, and lacks any common sense what so ever. I would have a hard time if seeing it, to not take it away and blast the guy with some marbles upside his head.:rolleyes: He is missing marbles to even remotely think about publishing that garbage. I did use one as a kid to kill things. Like birds, squirrel, rabbits etc. How the heck would one know how far to draw and not embed a dog with one for one thing. I would rather be whipped by a leash if I were a dog. It would hurt like hell at the least. That is the dumbest idea I have heard in my entire life LOL. Flush that book down the toilet.:thumbsup:
 
Musti brings up a good point. I would wager more dogs have been abused with an e-collar than with a slingshot. I am with Koja, my dogs get excited when they see it because it means we are doing something fun. I wouldn't do something like that either, but if you think about it shocking the crap out of your dog is no fun either. A well trained dog takes effort, I think the e collar has made many lazy.
 
koja48 said:
Valid point. At the heart of the matter, there are some folks (and I loathe them all), who abuse every training method because they want immediate results, perfect performance, and have NO clue that all this comes with time invested between the handler & the dog. These types are easy to identify -- their dogs show an obvious reluctance to wear a collar. My dogs have always come running to get their respective collars, because I introduced them properly, understood how the collars worked & how to use them, and they have always been associated with fun outings to come. I've also tried every collar setting on myself before ever placing one on one of my dogs. That being said, kindness, praise, & instilling discipline brings-out the best consistent performance from both dogs & hunters. A dog thus trained has no higher desire than to please. My Dad never had a single collar; he taught me what I know about bird dogs/dogs in general; neither of us ever employed abusive techniques. If I saw a guy smack his dog with a slingshot, I'd be inclined to take it away & let him experience a marble or two.
Click to expand...
Very well put.
 
Without a doubt the ecollar is the most humane and best thing that ever happened to dog training. Instant correction at selectable levels including tone and vibration is unbeatable.


but back in the day I would have a key ring full of old keys, you train the pup first so he knows the command and understands it.

Then swat him on the butt with a key ring full of keys when his disobeys, no slingshot just toss it at him. Only use it when he's real close so you can hit him, and no fast ball it just has to hit and startle him, within a second or two of the command.


From that point on all you have to do is jingle the keys, dogs have no sense of distance.

Most people usually have keys in their pocket. I used this trick a lot of times in the 70s and 80s pre ecollar ( for me)
 
When I jiggle my keys, Hank runs out to the Jeep, lol . . .
 
Yeah, but he wants to drive . . .
 
I don't trust mine to drive he's always drinking my beer. seriously he begs for beer when you crack one LOL.
 
Mustistuff I never said ecollars in the wrong hands are humane at least I never found those words in my post. And yes you must teach the dog first without the collar. I've been involved with retriever training my entire life. My father trained professionaly, both hunting labs and field trial labs and also campaigned others dogs along with his own. You would not be able to mention a training technique involving retrievers that I have not seen used both successfully and unsuccessfully. I've carried on his love of retrievers by training and running my own labs as well as taking in 1-2 select retrievers for training once a year in my own kennel, mostly friends and fiends of friends dogs using my fathers program. And I will mention I do this service for free because I think everyone who wants a dog to duck hunt with deserves a well trained retriever.

Your post came across as saying I know nothing of ecollars and their use. Every retriever I have ever owned was, is, and are finished retrievers capable of the most difficult of retrieves. Most all trained with the loving use of the ecollar.

I was simply stating that inhumane training techniques were used back in the day by trainers who now use the ecollar and most of those trainers who may have used less than humane techniques have forgotten more about collars today than most of us here.

I hope this clears up my previous post for you.

Bobman lots of guys used to a choke chain the same way.
 
Yeah I know about jingling a chain choke collar, but I decided to use a key ring because if I am dressed I usually have keys in my pocket
 
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