Lab problem

[Gatzby]

Sounds to me like the pooch is being a dog. There is a big difference between fetching in the park and a "trained retrieve".

I am more than happy to offer some advice, but I need a little more info.

What are your goals for your dog? How much time are you willing to invest/ commit.
Do you want a dog that will flush birds and retrieve more or less reliably to hand? Or do you want "finished"

I'll try to keep it to the point. The main reason I starter this thread is last week when I took him out for a little retrieving practice I use a canvas bumper with pheasant sent ( the kind that looks like a stick of deodorant ) and one of those life like looking dummies ( pheasant style with the hard head feet and tail, dokken I think they call it here. ) that Dirt found in a field on day while hiking.

What I think the BIG problem wit that day was.
1- it was hot.
2- he spent about 2-3 hrs playing with a 4 month old puppy prior to our training session.
3- Dirts 2nd time out on a real training session, away from the back yard and town park.

I'm not looking for excuses to excuse his behavior, just trying to figure out where the problem was and correct it.

What I would like to see happen is for him to dive into the brush with out hesitation ( that's my biggest issue with him )
And I'm not expecting him to be field/hunting expert. I guess just a weekend warrior like my self. Unfortunately I work in wash.dc and live just south of York city PA.

I want a flusher and retriever and to stay until I shoot.
And as far as time to invest I can devote 1-2 hrs daily and the weekends are
Pretty much open to do what I want. And I have a great wife who doesn't ad to the honey do list during fishing and hunting season.

I hope this info helps you let me know if you need anything else. I'll be looking forward to you're reply.

Dave.

Sorry I forgot to address the steadied to flush. Start by teaching your dog on lead to sit to a whistle. this is nothing more then sit, whistle toot, sit. pretty soon the dog will just sit whenever you to the whistle. Once this is solid remove the lead. Now take him for a walk in the field and gradually increase the distance she is away from you while saying sit, a toot, and a sit command. Slowly remove the sit command till you only whistle and the dog will sit. No slowly add in distractions starting very simple and gradually increasing the difficulty. It is very important that you demand and expect perfection from the dog at this level. Now go back to that same field and play dead bird but make your dog sit with the whistle numerous times. This step will go poorly and you will struggle and most likely will need to put a check cord on the dog to get the sit. If your dog is collar condition to sit you could use an E collar but I would be somewhat hesitant if your dog is the least bit timid or unmotivated on birds. I cannot stress enough that your dog will need to be 100% proficient. Now have your buddy throw a bird into one of those clumps and have your dog sit in process of going for the retreive. I would definitely have a check Cord on for this step at least initially. Now it's time to add in a shot to The thrown bird. Again 100% compliance before moving onto the next step.
Now grab your buddy, buy a bunch of birds at the game farm. watch your dog closely, when the dog flushes the bird whistle and and demand a sit. Your buddy shoots the bird, you release the dog, he goes out, retrieves it. Easy.....you've just trained a wonderful upland companion. Plus you look like the world's greatest dog trainer.

If you take your time and move in very small in incremental steps you will find this to be a very fun and enjoyable process, the dogs absolutely love playing dead bird.

 

[Gatzby]

I wrote the last to posts on my phone while waiting out the rain... I apologize for the typos but I am to damn lazy to fix them, and the rain stopped. Time to train.

 

[padave]

I wrote the last to posts on my phone while waiting out the rain... I apologize for the typos but I am to damn lazy to fix them, and the rain stopped. Time to train.

that is some great advice my friend, thanks a million...

 

[duckn66]

The question that I didn't see asked as of yet is; What training program did you follow?

If none and you are jus winging it, not to sound sarcastic but there is your problem right there.

You can ask all the questions you want on the internet and get as many different answers.

Get yourself a proven program and follow it to a T if you haven't yet.

And if you are following a training program force fetch that dog as well when the time comes in its training. Force fetch is NOT a way to MAKE a retriever retrieve as they most all will fetch something to you. It is much more than that. It is a conditioned retrieve that fixes many problems from improper hold to spitting the bird, dummy or whatever out at your feet. It also teaches a dog how to deal with pressure and that there is an escape and that escape is doing what you ask it to do. It is an amazing thing and once complete you will swear you have a different dog! I am a firm believer in FF for retrievers who are going to be used as intended.

I understand the dog is 2 years old and this is still PLENTY young to begin a training program. You may have some bad habits to work through but it will get by them.

 

[Gatzby]

The question that I didn't see asked as of yet is; What training program did you follow?

If none and you are jus winging it, not to sound sarcastic but there is your problem right there.

You can ask all the questions you want on the internet and get as many different answers.

Get yourself a proven program and follow it to a T if you haven't yet.

And if you are following a training program force fetch that dog as well when the time comes in its training. Force fetch is NOT a way to MAKE a retriever retrieve as they most all will fetch something to you. It is much more than that. It is a conditioned retrieve that fixes many problems from improper hold to spitting the bird, dummy or whatever out at your feet. It also teaches a dog how to deal with pressure and that there is an escape and that escape is doing what you ask it to do. It is an amazing thing and once complete you will swear you have a different dog! I am a firm believer in FF for retrievers who are going to be used as intended.

I understand the dog is 2 years old and this is still PLENTY young to begin a training program. You may have some bad habits to work through but it will get by them.

All of what you say is true. Unfortunately programs like smart works, TRT, or fowl dogs don't necessarily get the average weekend Hunter where they need to be. I have trained with Evan Graham multiple times, Rick Stawski allows me to use his facility regularly, and one of my personal dogs was featured in Mike Lardys total retriever training. I am a huge supporter of all of what these guys have done for the retriever training sport. While any of these programs will allow you to train a dog to the master level in hunt test or a solid Field trail competitor they will not build you a good meat and potato upland hunting dog.

I agree that force fetch is probably the most important and most valuable thing you can do for a solid hunting dog. And I also strongly believe that force fetch is not the big giant gorilla in the room the people make it to be. Unfortunately the process of force fetch cannot be effectively tought over the Internet or through video or book it needs to be learned through hands on experience. Bill Hillmans fetch command seems to be an effective route to get a trained retrieve without the ear pinch or the toe hitch. Unfortunately his process will not work with the dog that has little to no desire to retrieve

All of my dogs are forced fetched and I would not have it any other way. For me I believe it's imperative to get to where I want my dog. But I also believe you can have a solid meat dog without force fetch. And I do not use the term meat dog condescendingly. No matter how many ribbons my dogs win during the summer it's their performance on the Prairie that makes me the most proud.

I would never try and talk anyone out of following one of these programs but for the week end warrior they might be just a little bit more than they're willing to take on. what they will achieve at the end may not be necessarily what they want or need

 

[padave]

The question that I didn't see asked as of yet is; What training program did you follow?

If none and you are jus winging it, not to sound sarcastic but there is your problem right there.

You can ask all the questions you want on the internet and get as many different answers.

Get yourself a proven program and follow it to a T if you haven't yet.

And if you are following a training program force fetch that dog as well when the time comes in its training. Force fetch is NOT a way to MAKE a retriever retrieve as they most all will fetch something to you. It is much more than that. It is a conditioned retrieve that fixes many problems from improper hold to spitting the bird, dummy or whatever out at your feet. It also teaches a dog how to deal with pressure and that there is an escape and that escape is doing what you ask it to do. It is an amazing thing and once complete you will swear you have a different dog! I am a firm believer in FF for retrievers who are going to be used as intended.

I understand the dog is 2 years old and this is still PLENTY young to begin a training program. You may have some bad habits to work through but it will get by them.

thanks Ill look in to FF

 

[padave]

All of what you say is true. Unfortunately programs like smart works, TRT, or fowl dogs don't necessarily get the average weekend Hunter where they need to be. I have trained with Evan Graham multiple times, Rick Stawski allows me to use his facility regularly, and one of my personal dogs was featured in Mike Lardys total retriever training. I am a huge supporter of all of what these guys have done for the retriever training sport. While any of these programs will allow you to train a dog to the master level in hunt test or a solid Field trail competitor they will not build you a good meat and potato upland hunting dog.

I agree that force fetch is probably the most important and most valuable thing you can do for a solid hunting dog. And I also strongly believe that force fetch is not the big giant gorilla in the room the people make it to be. Unfortunately the process of force fetch cannot be effectively tought over the Internet or through video or book it needs to be learned through hands on experience. Bill Hillmans fetch command seems to be an effective route to get a trained retrieve without the ear pinch or the toe hitch. Unfortunately his process will not work with the dog that has little to no desire to retrieve

All of my dogs are forced fetched and I would not have it any other way. For me I believe it's imperative to get to where I want my dog. But I also believe you can have a solid meat dog without force fetch. And I do not use the term meat dog condescendingly. No matter how many ribbons my dogs win during the summer it's their performance on the Prairie that makes me the most proud.

I would never try and talk anyone out of following one of these programs but for the week end warrior they might be just a little bit more than they're willing to take on. what they will achieve at the end may not be necessarily what they want or need

you do make a great point here I didn't consider "Weekend Warrior" and proud to hold that badge. Not all of us have great opportunities and locations for bird dog training, and some may ask why have a bird dog ( because I want to ) I work 8-10hr job that's 1 1/2hrs away from my house so I don't expect to have a dog with a bunch of ribbons etc. hanging on the wall ( for some that works but not me ) I just want a dog that listens and finds birds, if he's not perfect for "field Champ status" then so be I'm not a great shot either.

Today my wife surprised me for my birthday and we went to a local game farm. Because it wasn't in full season and they had no other hunters today the farm let me have 5 pheasants for 100$ ( in these parts is a good deal ).

Needless to say Dirt found all but 1 and retrieved 3 out of 4 of them. Ill explain.

Just to get it out there right away I did mention I'm not the best shot, so I missed one.

The one he didn't find ( Right away ) was a hen. It was about knee deep of grass and he was smelling where I thought the bird might be, after a min. I saw the hen bird run off toward some Very Thick Crop that hasn't been harvested yet, once I got dirt in the direction where the bird was going he was on the sent hard but the bird ran way to fast ( I guess a dog can smell better then they can see ) I thought Dirt saw the bird a few times but was more interested in the sent then any thing else. But after the bird ran into the crop it was over my head in most places and almost to thick to even move around. so I donated that one to the foxes, Hawks etc.

All of the Birds Dirt found, chased, retrieved he did it with what I thought was the perfect motivation. So when I originally started this thread it must of been a fluke or he was having an off day because when we went out to day it was like the last day from when we stopped last year. but there's always room for some improvement, I wont give up on him now he's a keeper.

 

[david0311]

david0311

As stated early in thread and your original post---

birds-birds-and more bird's

The available programs are great in most case's someone here has stated get one and follow it to a T-not all dogs are the same and not all programs good for all cases-the really good/great trainers adjust methods to the dog

Lots of stereo typical reply's (like what program are you following--reminds me of the old whats your sign)--well meaning but?--you have to sort it out--do you have a club nearby you can associate with? Or spend a little time / cash or sweat equity on getting help?

Your on track after the preserve--good luck--work on one new step at a time while reenforcing where you have had success--

I do like Rick Stawski's program--Rick is a very nice person and he has a reputation for responding to someone with issues while using his program-

OK those in disagreement--take your shots

 

[Ditchmaster]

Fowl Dogs? Great series of videos/DVDs and although it isn't that exciting it really shows you a step by step approach to retriever training.