Getting too far out

D

Dcup

New member
2.5 year old GSP getting too far out and flushing birds out of range (then looks at me in wonder as to why I'm not shooting). This is her second year afield and last year we didn't see squat for birds so of course she is still learning. She did well opening weekend, but this past Friday I could not get her to ease up. Birdy all day long and just kept pushing flushes 50-60 yards out in front.

She's not responding to collar stimulation like she usually does. I have to admit she only does it when she gets on scent...I can't stop her from going crazy. She literally picks up scent and is off to the races.

We've practiced at home, at the park, in the field, but when she gets on scent she is like a runaway locomotive...it's crazy.

Thoughts, ideas, tips?
 
it takes birds to make a bird dog....."We've practiced at home, at the park, in the field"........practiced what?
 
Last edited:
Sounds like you have a very driven dog. :)

She seems to have all of the tools to be a very good dog, you just need to get some control. Is she just blowing through birds or are they busting out ahead wild?

What has been her training thus far?
 
If she is only 50-60 yards in front of you, I would say the problem isn't that she is getting too far out. I am guessing the problem is that she isn't sure what she is supposed to be doing with the birds yet. When she hits scent, she should be putting on the brakes. Is it possible that she has been rewarded with shot birds that weren't pointed? She needs some steadiness work and to be whoa broke if she hasn't been yet. What has the training process consisted of so far?
 
I could be wrong, but...

I'd put the hammer down.

Back to the check cord and planted bird. From what you say, the dog is busting birds, or pushing them hard so that they flush, rather than freeze.

Your scenario sounds like she is hunting for her own pleasure, and has not quite grasped the partnership you two need.

It would appear she has the prey drive. Now all you have to do is enforce the behavior commands. But ENFORCE them.

School's out, she's in the work force now. :)

Have fun. A solvable problem.

Folks have used a table, and recently I saw someone using a barrel, to set their dogs up and drill the "whoa" command into the dog's head. Everytime the dog moved a foot, or shifted position, it was chastised and the errant foot moved back. "Whoa" means WHOA.

She'll get it.
 
not to be rude, but my guess is she got very little formal training as a pup....you can't train the dog on wild birds and have the control and set up you need to teach her what is acceptable (you mentioned she had little bird contact last season, that should not be an issue, had she been introduced to birds properly as a pup).....they don't come "out of the box" ready to go....it takes time and lots of birds to make a good finished dog......if you aren't willing to do that or get help from someone who knows what to do, then the dog will continue to disappoint......and it is not her fault....lastly, i would FF this dog as well and learn how to use an e collar.........again, not to be rude, but your comments are very revealing, the dog has never received adequate formal training....get some help, she sounds likes a good dog.
 
hunter94 said:
not to be rude, but my guess is she got very little formal training as a pup....you can't train the dog on wild birds and have the control and set up you need to teach her what is acceptable (you mentioned she had little bird contact last season, that should not be an issue, had she been introduced to birds properly as a pup).....they don't come "out of the box" ready to go....it takes time and lots of birds to make a good finished dog......if you aren't willing to do that or get help from someone who knows what to do, then the dog will continue to disappoint......and it is not her fault....lastly, i would FF this dog as well and learn how to use an e collar.........again, not to be rude, but your comments are very revealing, the dog has never received adequate formal training....get some help, she sounds likes a good dog.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't force fetch the dog unless you know exactly what you are doing. A poor FF job done by someone who doesn't know what they are doing can ruin a dog.
 
hunter94 said:
or get help from someone who knows what to do
Click to expand...

Yup. Saw that. Btw, what would force fetching a dog do to alleviate the problem the OP has? Not trying to be a jerk, just asking.
Instill some control perhaps?
I have a different philosophy in dog training Im guessing then you and am just curious.
 
V-John said:
Yup. Saw that. Btw, what would force fetching a dog do to alleviate the problem the OP has? Not trying to be a jerk, just asking.
Instill some control perhaps?
I have a different philosophy in dog training Im guessing then you and am just curious.
Click to expand...

I agree, force fetching is a whole nother issue. One issue has to be that some people want a dog to be under control at all times, they need a retriever! A pointer has to be bold, go to where the game is and be honest enough to hold it. That doesn't work with the philosophy of intense owner coupled with a reaching pointer. Both handler and dog will be frustrated. In a perfect world, that dog as a pup would understand pointing and be rewarded with a flush, and a kill and never samples the poisoned fruit of breaking and flushing. We're past that now. Realistically, the conclusion is to push her into birds with the idea she will gain the point-flush(by you)-shot-fall-retrieve perspective she should already have. If you need professional help to get that many bird contacts by all means do it. As far as not using "wild" birds, I can think contact with wild birds is ideal. A wild bird won't tolerate the shenanigans that placed bird will. The controlled-placed bird can lead to errors that may complicate the task. I would hunt her on her own, no other dogs, is she running into birds competively with the ther dogs?, is she hyper-active? can she be settled down with time in field to do it right? These are some of the issues. It is possible to to have a dog with either no sense, or no nose which causes her to get to close resulting in a flush. When that bird flushes, sometimes others flush, those are secondary reactions, but make the dog wilder. There are and have been pointers who were trained by repetition, I have had litters of English pointers who seemed to have no idea what a point is! I have even literally had to find a bird, hold and form the point at a few weeks old. Believe it they became outstanding hunters. If you have to back, go all the way back, proceed as behavior warrants. You want have a sequence where you are dealing with a wild bird, dog points, you flush, shoot and retrieve flawlessly. You can see it in the dogs eyes, the recognition that the dog understands, then it will be a past problem! It may not be easy. Range is not the issue, in fact it may be another issue, because range needs to be wider unless you are hunting 20 year old head high CRP. Dogs are like Kids, you can get one, but it's easy to screw one up. Reality also true that either one might be predisposed anyway. Your mission is to find out which one it is.
 
you can bet that a dog that continually busts birds will not make a reliable retrieve either.....compliance, take the dog to a professional or you will be moving from one problem to another.
 
Range is not the problem, it's holding point.
A 2 yo that hasn't gotten to be on many birds yet is going to make some mistakes.

Have you done any stop to flush training? It could help. At least the birds will get bumped one at a time :)
 
oldandnew said:
I agree, force fetching is a whole nother issue. One issue has to be that some people want a dog to be under control at all times, they need a retriever! A pointer has to be bold, go to where the game is and be honest enough to hold it. That doesn't work with the philosophy of intense owner coupled with a reaching pointer. Both handler and dog will be frustrated. In a perfect world, that dog as a pup would understand pointing and be rewarded with a flush, and a kill and never samples the poisoned fruit of breaking and flushing. We're past that now. Realistically, the conclusion is to push her into birds with the idea she will gain the point-flush(by you)-shot-fall-retrieve perspective she should already have. If you need professional help to get that many bird contacts by all means do it. As far as not using "wild" birds, I can think contact with wild birds is ideal. A wild bird won't tolerate the shenanigans that placed bird will. The controlled-placed bird can lead to errors that may complicate the task. I would hunt her on her own, no other dogs, is she running into birds competively with the ther dogs?, is she hyper-active? can she be settled down with time in field to do it right? These are some of the issues. It is possible to to have a dog with either no sense, or no nose which causes her to get to close resulting in a flush. When that bird flushes, sometimes others flush, those are secondary reactions, but make the dog wilder. There are and have been pointers who were trained by repetition, I have had litters of English pointers who seemed to have no idea what a point is! I have even literally had to find a bird, hold and form the point at a few weeks old. Believe it they became outstanding hunters. If you have to back, go all the way back, proceed as behavior warrants. You want have a sequence where you are dealing with a wild bird, dog points, you flush, shoot and retrieve flawlessly. You can see it in the dogs eyes, the recognition that the dog understands, then it will be a past problem! It may not be easy. Range is not the issue, in fact it may be another issue, because range needs to be wider unless you are hunting 20 year old head high CRP. Dogs are like Kids, you can get one, but it's easy to screw one up. Reality also true that either one might be predisposed anyway. Your mission is to find out which one it is.
Click to expand...

Good post. I would think I (personally speaking) would work on getting the dog to stand birds, before worrying about retrieving.
 
hunter94 said:
you can bet that a dog that continually busts birds will not make a reliable retrieve either.....compliance, take the dog to a professional or you will be moving from one problem to another.
Click to expand...

Well it's a chicken or the egg! Personally I get the dog to point, if it can't point, no shot, making it a moot point about retrieving. If it points, I can shag myself over to pick up the dead. I assume with that kind of enthusiam by me and the fluttering bird, the dog with any iota of heritage as a field bred dog will search and pick it up, all you have to do convince it to come back to you, and not eat it! So you know, I have had many satisfying outings hunting with big running rawboned male pointers who disdained retrieving, and set out to find a new bird after being released from the point. They had spaniels, Labs, or some singles pointer to mop up the dead any singles around. This is the style today in the highbrow quail clubs, the self confident, bull-cow stud dogs don't retreive considering that beneath them. It's us, with a limited stable of canine firepower who have the dual dogs. But I'll tell you there are pointer females who never walk away from a downed bird that wasn't in the gamebag. I wish we have quail to develope one, of either kind! Part of this is that we are now talking pheasants, a bird that does not play by the rules, makes it hard on pointers anyway. dogs like springers, or labradors are better, because they don't play by rule either! Pointers need experience, repetition, in all weather, over years, to learn the nuiances. Which they can do, but not out pointing pen raised birds, which have no idea of what their doing either. Great dogs are found, and bred, not made. The old bird guys call spectacular bitches, "blue hens". A great lucky find, maybe once in a lifetime. We need birds to let give them the experience. Sometimes it's age, when the gait of the dog approaches the nose capability, good things happen.
 
hunter94 said:
it takes birds to make a bird dog....."We've practiced at home, at the park, in the field"........practiced what?
Click to expand...

birdshooter said:
Sounds like you have a very driven dog. :)

She seems to have all of the tools to be a very good dog, you just need to get some control. Is she just blowing through birds or are they busting out ahead wild?

What has been her training thus far?
Click to expand...

Not going to multi-quote everyone in here, but here's a rundown and I enjoy the insight. By no means am I a trainer or proclaim to be and this is my first hunting dog (I am 29). I think I have a great dog with great drive and instinct but I get the feeling she is missing the point (no pun intended). She is very intelligent and is extremely quick to pick up things that I teach her, but when it comes to time in the field, well...

We did start off with planted birds when she was a pup, but I got a promotion within my company and had a baby at the same time and of course the training fell off almost completely. We worked together as much as we could, but I know that I didn't spend enough time. Eventually I just took her out hunting and we didn't see any birds that weren't flushing wild. She has only had one bird EVER shot over her...it was a point, flush by my partner and 1 shot kill. She grabbed the bird and brought it back.

But, when she picks up scent she goes crazy, running zig zags, circles, etc (some might call it quartering...I wouldn't consider this quartering). Finally she finds a "hotspot" where a bird has been sitting and locks up...for a split second. What happens most times is that a bird had been sitting there a few seconds ago but has since moved 20-30 feet. She didn't pick up the scent of the bird as it moved but rather the spot it was sitting. By this time she has ran so many circles around the bird that it flushes wild and she chases.

Of course this doesn't necessarily sound like an issue of getting too far out and you could say going all the way back to whoa training is in order. But I feel like even when she is under control (hunting closer) as soon as she hits scent her mind goes blank and she goes beserk.

This is probably a confusing post, but I'm no professional and don't need a world renowned pointer, but I do want her to mind a little better and want to hunt with me.

Constructive criticism is always welcome.
 
Last edited:
Maybe I need to work with a professional, but how many professional trainers want to take on a 2.5 year old dog? I also feel like I need to start all over.
 
Dcup said:
Maybe I need to work with a professional, but how many professional trainers want to take on a 2.5 year old dog? I also feel like I need to start all over.
Click to expand...

Lots of good trainers take dogs who need some help at any age. Some can reverse even gunshy dogs. I think you need some field time. There is a certain amount of labor here to get there. Expereince is every thing, sound like the retrieving thing is fine. Have some faith, let her explore. She will remember her mistakes, normally. also do not confuse the issue with scent, sometimes it is a mystery, a dog can step on a bird, and not smell it. A day latter they will point 30 yards away. one of the mysterys of life! I think you need more experence in the field to see a pattern. Hunt her and see where it goes. If you need a professional, you will be able to be specific about what you want in the end. Most of us end up with a combination of really good traits in a dog, some have character flaws, most we can ignore. Some are too much, and we need a new start. good luck, and keep us informed.
 
She's only 2 1/2, so you have time to start over, but I would get started as soon as possible. The going nuts when she hits scent could be self hunting or it could just be that she doesn't know what to do. I would lean more towards a combination of both. It sounds like she needs to get to a pro and you have some good ones down in your area. I would recommend Jeff Chapman in Center Point. His website with contact info is http://www.iowahuntingdogtrainer.com If he can't help you out, he will know someone who can. What kind of breeding does she have behind her?
 
oldandnew said:
Lots of good trainers take dogs who need some help at any age. Some can reverse even gunshy dogs. I think you need some field time. There is a certain amount of labor here to get there. Expereince is every thing, sound like the retrieving thing is fine. Have some faith, let her explore. She will remember her mistakes, normally. also do not confuse the issue with scent, sometimes it is a mystery, a dog can step on a bird, and not smell it. A day latter they will point 30 yards away. one of the mysterys of life! I think you need more experence in the field to see a pattern. Hunt her and see where it goes. If you need a professional, you will be able to be specific about what you want in the end. Most of us end up with a combination of really good traits in a dog, some have character flaws, most we can ignore. Some are too much, and we need a new start. good luck, and keep us informed.
Click to expand...

What I think I will do is finish out the season and see how things are progressing. Like I said before I don't need a superhuman hunting dog, rather just a companion in the field as well as at home. But in the same breath I also want her to do it right so I can hunt with others and not have them discouraged.

JeremyS said:
She's only 2 1/2, so you have time to start over, but I would get started as soon as possible. The going nuts when she hits scent could be self hunting or it could just be that she doesn't know what to do. I would lean more towards a combination of both. It sounds like she needs to get to a pro and you have some good ones down in your area. I would recommend Jeff Chapman in Center Point. His website with contact info is http://www.iowahuntingdogtrainer.com If he can't help you out, he will know someone who can. What kind of breeding does she have behind her?
Click to expand...

Not sure on the bloodlines. She didn't have papers when I bought her and I really didn't care at the time. Fell in love with the breed after one day of hunting behind a phenomenal GSP and here we are.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top