Force fetch

[shorthairs12]

Hello all. I recently started force fetching my 15 month old GSP she knows hold very well now. I started with the ear pinch about 2 weeks ago she will open her mouth but won't actually reach out for the dummy just relies on me to put it in her mouth. It's been 2 weeks of this now just hasn't improved at all. Any help or tips would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Gatzby]

I've learned FF issues cannot be diagnosed on the Internet. Where are you located? A second set of (experienced) eyes is what you need.

 

[IsThisHeaven?]

What Gatzby said. Any suggestions would be purely speculation, which usually isn't that big of a deal. Force fetch, on the other hand is something you want to make sure is done correctly the first time. Significant damage can be done if the problem is misdiagnosed.

 

[mnaj_springer]

Could you post a video of one of your sessions?

 

[Makintrax73]

Just tried FF this year for the first time. Took me a lot longer than two weeks. Maybe 3 months to picking up a bumper on the ground. Timing? Pressure? Dog? Who knows, but as beginners I think we have to be patient.

 

[A5 Sweet 16]

I get force fetching, but allow me to make a short story long. I'll start by admitting that I don't have the highest standards for my dog(s). As long as they're usually well-behaved & do what I need them to do in the field, I'm happy. Field requirements include stay reasonably close, find birds, flush them, and don't lose them.

I got my first springer Walt in 2002. He was 5 months old on opening day, and it didn't take him long to get the hang of roosters real well. About 2/3 through the season, he started retrieving on his own, and we never looked back. I never taught him anything other than basic obedience. To me, he was a phenomenal dog.

I got back-up springer Buzz in 2012. He picked up hunting real well that fall, but regardless of which dog got to a downed bird first, Walt (a pretty domineering dog) ALWAYS retrieved it. Of course, both dogs would come to me, Walt with the bird, & I'd praise them both big time. Then in Sept. 2013, Walt died. The 2013 season without him started out really frustrating. Buzz had no problem finding plenty of birds & getting them in the air, but we were losing a few, which I wasn't used to at all. I finally realized he was finding the dead birds just fine, but he'd sit down by them & just stay there. I had to first find the dog, and there I'd find the rooster. So then I started making sure I got to the spot somewhat quickly too, so if the bird was giving Buzz problems, I could grab it. This went on for 3 seasons. We shot plenty of birds, and lost VERY few. That became good enough because our hunts were successful & I praised Buzz every time he didn't retrieve a bird. I firmly believe I'd taught him not to pick up birds.

Meanwhile, everyone's telling me I have to force fetch him, which I admittedly didn't want to commit to. I just figured there had to be an easier, more fun way to get my dog to retrieve. I tried wings, which he initially shied away from. I tried full birds, which he'd pick up if he had to, but always acted like he was scared to do it - that he was doing something wrong, even if he received tons of praise. He'd fetch pretty much anything, as long as it wasn't in an actual hunting situation. In 4 seasons, he'd put exactly zero roosters in his mouth. I'd had to strip down to retrieve a couple birds in sloughs (warm-weather days); gone through ice as he happily sat by his prize; all manner of things to make the final pick-up & put birds in the bag.

One of Buzz's true loves is flying off the dock into the lake to fetch the bumper. He'd do it 24/7/365 if he could. 3 weeks ago, during our residents only season (public land), I shot a young bird as we hunted around the edge of a large pond/slough. It finally dawned on me, "What if I THREW this thing in the water?" After finishing the area, I chucked that bird in the water. He bounded out there, thought about it a while, and after a bit of encouragement, brought it back. We did this probably 15 times, in the water, the weeds, the cattails, everywhere. He had an absolute BLAST! The next 2 birds, he considered picking up, but just didn't. However, I threw them in the weeds & he'd go get them. The following weekend, after some begging on my part, he retrieved his first rooster on his own. Then 2 more with a little pleading. Then a couple withOUT begging him to do it. This past weekend he retrieved 6 roosters completely on his own, without any encouragement on my part. He's doing it very happily & receives tons of praise. I anticipate it will become more & more fun for him & that the retrieves will get a little more aggressive. He hasn't made a TRUE believer out of me quite yet, but I firmly believe we've turned a major corner.

Point being, there's no doubt in my mind that my first dog Walt & I inadvertently taught Buzz not to pick up birds. I know there's a place for force fetch, but I also think that if your main goal is just to get a dog to retrieve birds, there might be another way.

 

[Dakotazeb]

Point being, there's no doubt in my mind that my first dog Walt & I inadvertently taught Buzz not to pick up birds. I know there's a place for force fetch, but I also think that if your main goal is just to get a dog to retrieve birds, there might be another way.

I went through the same thing about 10 years ago with a pair of Brittanys. The older dog was a great retriever but the younger one was not. Thus the older dog retrieved all the birds and by letting him do that I taught the younger dog NOT to retrieve. The younger dog never did retrieve. I wish I would of had a professional Force Fetch that dog.

Force Fetch, or as I prefer to call it "Trained Retrieve", is the way to go with a dog that won't retrieve or not good at it. I've tried to do it myself but always failed. Having a professional do it is well worth the money.

 

[ranchodeluxe]

I get force fetching, but allow me to make a short story long. I'll start by admitting that I don't have the highest standards for my dog(s). As long as they're usually well-behaved & do what I need them to do in the field, I'm happy. Field requirements include stay reasonably close, find birds, flush them, and don't lose them.

I got my first springer Walt in 2002. He was 5 months old on opening day, and it didn't take him long to get the hang of roosters real well. About 2/3 through the season, he started retrieving on his own, and we never looked back. I never taught him anything other than basic obedience. To me, he was a phenomenal dog.

I got back-up springer Buzz in 2012. He picked up hunting real well that fall, but regardless of which dog got to a downed bird first, Walt (a pretty domineering dog) ALWAYS retrieved it. Of course, both dogs would come to me, Walt with the bird, & I'd praise them both big time. Then in Sept. 2013, Walt died. The 2013 season without him started out really frustrating. Buzz had no problem finding plenty of birds & getting them in the air, but we were losing a few, which I wasn't used to at all. I finally realized he was finding the dead birds just fine, but he'd sit down by them & just stay there. I had to first find the dog, and there I'd find the rooster. So then I started making sure I got to the spot somewhat quickly too, so if the bird was giving Buzz problems, I could grab it. This went on for 3 seasons. We shot plenty of birds, and lost VERY few. That became good enough because our hunts were successful & I praised Buzz every time he didn't retrieve a bird. I firmly believe I'd taught him not to pick up birds.

Meanwhile, everyone's telling me I have to force fetch him, which I admittedly didn't want to commit to. I just figured there had to be an easier, more fun way to get my dog to retrieve. I tried wings, which he initially shied away from. I tried full birds, which he'd pick up if he had to, but always acted like he was scared to do it - that he was doing something wrong, even if he received tons of praise. He'd fetch pretty much anything, as long as it wasn't in an actual hunting situation. In 4 seasons, he'd put exactly zero roosters in his mouth. I'd had to strip down to retrieve a couple birds in sloughs (warm-weather days); gone through ice as he happily sat by his prize; all manner of things to make the final pick-up & put birds in the bag.

One of Buzz's true loves is flying off the dock into the lake to fetch the bumper. He'd do it 24/7/365 if he could. 3 weeks ago, during our residents only season (public land), I shot a young bird as we hunted around the edge of a large pond/slough. It finally dawned on me, "What if I THREW this thing in the water?" After finishing the area, I chucked that bird in the water. He bounded out there, thought about it a while, and after a bit of encouragement, brought it back. We did this probably 15 times, in the water, the weeds, the cattails, everywhere. He had an absolute BLAST! The next 2 birds, he considered picking up, but just didn't. However, I threw them in the weeds & he'd go get them. The following weekend, after some begging on my part, he retrieved his first rooster on his own. Then 2 more with a little pleading. Then a couple withOUT begging him to do it. This past weekend he retrieved 6 roosters completely on his own, without any encouragement on my part. He's doing it very happily & receives tons of praise. I anticipate it will become more & more fun for him & that the retrieves will get a little more aggressive. He hasn't made a TRUE believer out of me quite yet, but I firmly believe we've turned a major corner.

Point being, there's no doubt in my mind that my first dog Walt & I inadvertently taught Buzz not to pick up birds. I know there's a place for force fetch, but I also think that if your main goal is just to get a dog to retrieve birds, there might be another way.

No need to force a springer into anything. You just have to figure out what's going-on in that melon, then figure out how to convince them that what you wanted to do, and what he wants to do, are one and the same. My male was abandoned in MN at 1 1/2 years, he knew his name and he knew the two worst things a flushing dog can know, keep away and tug-of-war. Today I can sit my dogs side by each, in the dog park, with dogs all over and send them on command to fetch and retrieve. The other day my pup tried to pull a rooster out of the 6 1/2y/o mouth and I instantly saw that old familiar behavior kick-in. That was the first time I ever nicked her with the collar, but that had to end. For the rest of the day he gave a little tug every time you asked him to release the rooster. I'm anxious to see how he acts this weekend.

 

[mnaj_springer]

No need to force a springer into anything. You just have to figure out what's going-on in that melon, then figure out how to convince them that what you wanted to do, and what he wants to do, are one and the same. My male was abandoned in MN at 1 1/2 years, he knew his name and he knew the two worst things a flushing dog can know, keep away and tug-of-war. Today I can sit my dogs side by each, in the dog park, with dogs all over and send them on command to fetch and retrieve. The other day my pup tried to pull a rooster out of the 6 1/2y/o mouth and I instantly saw that old familiar behavior kick-in. That was the first time I ever nicked her with the collar, but that had to end. For the rest of the day he gave a little tug every time you asked him to release the rooster. I'm anxious to see how he acts this weekend.

Force fetch may not be necessary. You can have a good dog without it. I buy that. But I don't have the tug problem. Or keep away problem. And it's all because I DID force fetch my springer (and my pointer). When I say "give" it's all over and the bird is in my hand. In fact, at home, we play tug with a rope (which she loves) and I can end it at any time with the word "give."

But trust me, ranch... your comment about not forcing a springer to do anything. Do you teach your dogs sit? Do they learn a recall command? Or did you convince them to by figuring out what they think? What do you do if they disobey? Do you psychoanalyze them?

 

[ranchodeluxe]

Force fetch may not be necessary. You can have a good dog without it. I buy that. But I don't have the tug problem. Or keep away problem. And it's all because I DID force fetch my springer (and my pointer). When I say "give" it's all over and the bird is in my hand. In fact, at home, we play tug with a rope (which she loves) and I can end it at any time with the word "give."

But trust me, ranch... your comment about not forcing a springer to do anything. Do you teach your dogs sit? Do they learn a recall command? Or did you convince them to by figuring out what they think? What do you do if they disobey? Do you psychoanalyze them?

Well, first and foremost, I doubt your dog was beaten, abused and abandoned. That's the hand my male dog was dealt in life. I saved him from the green needle. No, he didn't know sit at 1.5 years old, he would disregard "come", likely because he knew he was about to be beaten. In short his mental frame of reference is one your dog will never know.

The part I didn't say is that, through positive reinforcement, not force, he quickly learned those basics, while learning to trust someone for the first time. He was the product of a MN "breeder" who's name I won't mention, ended up in the Red Wing Dog Pound because he was "Too hyper". He was sold to a suburban home where they taught him the behavior. I guarantee they didn't force it on him. I had to figure out what it was going to take to make him a serviceable dog. I had to convince him that he couldn't go flush the next bird until he gave up the last one, once the bulb came on, the behavior ceased. Today he waits his turn at the dog park with dogs running everywhere.

I just happened to mention that I saw my pup grab a rooster by the tail that was in his mouth, and he pulled back. It wasn't like they had a death match over the bird. Then when he came to me, I gave the command to release and he just pulled his head back a little, then let it go. I thought it interesting that I saw a little bit of that old behavior from him as he hasn't failed to deliver to hand and release on command for about 4 years, and still didn't he just tugged, then released.

Sure I taught him to sit. I guess you could say that placing your hand on his rump and applying gentle pressure while repeating the command could be considered "force" but it induces no stress, no pressure.

Sure I teach recall, by convincing him that nothing bad will ever happen to him, by my hand, and that he had no reason to run and hide when his name was called, because he isn't going to be beaten.

So yes, I do spend considerable time psychoanalyzing my dogs ( your words ).

Now, let's talk about my Glenwood Springer that comes from a proper, ethical and world-class breeder, Jennifer Tuttle-Graham. She has never known, nor will she ever know the kind of stress and the "force" that had been exuded upon my male dog. I have never used any tactics but the gentle teachings of Kenneth Roebuck, nowhere in all the literature that I have read, written by his hand, is the words "force fetch". It is simply not necessary.

My dogs won't win any hunt tests or field trials, but If you ever care to come out West and have a look, I am not shy about putting them in the field with anyone's dogs, including yours.

There, I "forced" my opinion on you. You do yours, I'll do mine.

 

[mnaj_springer]

Ranch, I don't doubt you have good dogs. And I agree most hunters can have a very nice dog without force fetch. But I doubt you have ever done FF, which would mean you don't understand the process or the benefits. You mentioned using an ecollar, which I hope means you collar conditioned your dogs. FF is the same process (by behavioral psychology standards). It's all negative reinforcement.

My dogs had nice retrieves before. Now they have perfect retrieves that happen every time. The point is, people knock FF all the time, but I doubt those people have actually done it properly. My dogs are better learners and students and I'm a better trainer after completing the process.

 

[ranchodeluxe]

Ranch, I don't doubt you have good dogs. And I agree most hunters can have a very nice dog without force fetch. But I doubt you have ever done FF, which would mean you don't understand the process or the benefits. You mentioned using an ecollar, which I hope means you collar conditioned your dogs. FF is the same process (by behavioral psychology standards). It's all negative reinforcement.

My dogs had nice retrieves before. Now they have perfect retrieves that happen every time. The point is, people knock FF all the time, but I doubt those people have actually done it properly. My dogs are better learners and students and I'm a better trainer after completing the process.

Sounds like it works for you, and you are correct about the e collar, it is negative reinforcement. I hadn't really thought about it in that manner. I really don't use them much. I use the tone feature the same as whistle commands, so I don't have to be on the whistle all the time. When you are following two dogs through open country and whistling, you give away your position to the birds and they can avoid you easier, in my opinion. I use the stimulation in rare cases, one I can think of is when my male was on a path to chase a wounded bird across Interstate 90 and didn't respond to the whistle. I knew the result of that would not be good. Also used it to stop my dog when on a collision course with a badger. I really don't use them for any real bird dog training as my criteria is just to have a dog that hunts and quarters in gun range, flushes and retrieves. I don't need, nor do I want a machine.

No, I haven't done force fetch, as I stated before, I don't feel it's necessary, and Mr. Roebuck, who was the foremost authority on spaniels in the world, didn't teach it.

 

[mnaj_springer]

Ranch, a force fetched dog is not a machine. Some might be... maybe the field trial and HT labs... but my dogs aren't. They know when to trust themselves and ignore me. And I know what it means when they do (there's a bird). But after FF they are polished retrievers. They are happy and confident while they retrieve because they know exactly what the expectations are.

And Roebuck may not FF, but many do who are very successful. Either route works, but one is fool proof.

 

[Dakotazeb]

Ranch, a force fetched dog is not a machine. Some might be... maybe the field trial and HT labs... but my dogs aren't. They know when to trust themselves and ignore me. And I know what it means when they do (there's a bird). But after FF they are polished retrievers. They are happy and confident while they retrieve because they know exactly what the expectations are.

And Roebuck may not FF, but many do who are very successful. Either route works, but one is fool proof.

:thumbsup:

If you are fortunate enough to have a natural retriever that never fails you are very lucky. FF isn't needed for every dog but is a valuable tool in training to retrieve consistently. Why put up with a dog that either won't retrieve or is inconsistent in their retrieve. And retrieving is not a breed specific issue. There are natural retrievers in every breed as well as those that won't. Many Labs, and other retriever breeds, have been put through FF.

 

[A5 Sweet 16]

Enjoy your conversation guys. The topic of "keep away" a little earlier reminded me of my first dog Walt. He NEVER brought a bird all the way to me. He'd always make me walk about 5 steps to take it from him. But it was good enough for me. He knew pheasants forward & backward & we lost no more than 2%-3% of our birds. He poured kerosene on my fire for pheasants. Watching him figure out just where a tight-sitting bird was buried & then come trotting back with it after running him down in cattails 50 yards from where it SHOULD have been.....nothing could've been more pleasurable. That friendly game of keep away at the end of the deal became our "thing". Kind of his way of saying, "Come on, Dad, you're gonna work for this a LITTLE!" Not a "perfect" retriever, but in terms of birds in the bag, I'd have put him up against anybody. So amazing to watch. Almost gets me a little choked up, but I'm glad for the memory of keep away.

 

[ranchodeluxe]

Enjoy your conversation guys. The topic of "keep away" a little earlier reminded me of my first dog Walt. He NEVER brought a bird all the way to me. He'd always make me walk about 5 steps to take it from him. But it was good enough for me. He knew pheasants forward & backward & we lost no more than 2%-3% of our birds. He poured kerosene on my fire for pheasants. Watching him figure out just where a tight-sitting bird was buried & then come trotting back with it after running him down in cattails 50 yards from where it SHOULD have been.....nothing could've been more pleasurable. That friendly game of keep away at the end of the deal became our "thing". Kind of his way of saying, "Come on, Dad, you're gonna work for this a LITTLE!" Not a "perfect" retriever, but in terms of birds in the bag, I'd have put him up against anybody. So amazing to watch. Almost gets me a little choked up, but I'm glad for the memory of keep away.

Yup, little sins like that are livable in real-world hunting situations. Of course we would be laughed out of the hunt test, but I have hunted with dogs who's resume includes winning trials, hunt tests, etc and found most of them to be no better functional bird dogs than mine. My rescue dog has a nose like a magnet. My high-dollar dog is still learning to trust hers at 1.5 years old. When I walk in the woods with my neighbor who has Goldens, he is simply amazed that my dogs will dig out a rotten stump to pull a month dead vole out of it and try to eat it. On my daily 8 mile motorcycle runs, my male dog lags behind, while the female just blazes down the trail. I have come to understand that he knows he can get into his stashes of dead sheit, without being reprimanded. He always shows up at the waterhole, and back at the house, usually smelling like something dead. That reminds me, he needs to be wormed.

One tactic I used to get my rescue dog to give up a bird was to convince him that my sole motive was not to punish him by taking his trophy. Many times I used to let him carry his prize all the way back to the truck. Or I would take the bird from him, then give it right back and let him hold it awhile.

 

[A5 Sweet 16]

Yeah, a good field trial dog, or good duck dog for that matter, does not a good pheasant dog make. I paid $200 for my first springer & $350 for the second & really couldn't be happier. Will they ambitiously retrieve ducks too? Yep. But do they like sitting & waiting for ducks? Heck no. As soon as I pull the trigger on a duck do they make a b-line to find a bird that might not even have dropped? Heck yes. Mine are pheasant dogs.

 

[mnaj_springer]

The hubris here is funny.

Ok guys, to be clear, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your hunting dogs. I had a dog just like that. He hinted in range, found birds, retrieved shot birds, and was a great friend! He did some amazing stuff like a 150 yard water retrieve on a giant honker. He has did other things, like not always come when called, or break from the duck blind. Heck of a dog. Way out of control. I guess over time my standards changed. I wanted all those qualities I had before plus steadiness and clean polished retrieves.

But here's another benefit to FF that some people gain (others don't because their dogs didn't need FF to get to this point): when I'm in the duck blind and I miraculously knock down two or (thank the heavens) three ducks. My springer will retrieve when commanded, grab one, come sit at a heel, release the bird, get lined up for the next, and go when released. There's no time wasted on keep away games or anything like that. Plus, going from one to the next helps her memory so we don't lose birds or waste time handling to simple double marks. Also, because she and I are in tune with after FF (that's a fringe benefit), I can pull her off the "mark" before sending her if one of the memory birds is crippled, hence making it a priority.

Another benefit that pheasant hunters can gain is that a properly FF dog will not drop the bird. I've seen dogs returning from a retrieve when a bird flushes wild and is shot. The dogs have dropped their current bird to get the other which led to a long search for the first bird. A properly FF dog will hold bird A, mark the other bird, return bird A, then retrieve bird B upon release.

Again, not dissing your dogs. I'd love to hunt over them. But there are benefits that the average hunter can gain from FF. So outright discouragement of FF is telling some to eliminate one good choice from a list of possible options.

And if you haven't tried FF, the name can be deceiving. My dogs received more praise than force during the process. But there are moments in the process when the dog learns he must "fetch" to avoid the pressure. But as I said before, the same behavioral methods are used in collar conditioning.

 

[duckn66]

Just curious, but why is force fetch so frowned upon by so many? I've FF every lab I've had and in the end I firmly believe I had a much better dog and one that trained to a higher level than if not FF.

FF is so much more than just a trained retrieve. Although that's probably the main focus for most. For me it also teaches a dog how to deal with pressure by doing the right thing. FF leads into much bigger things during advanced work. It will really make a much more reliable dog in all aspects IMO.

 

[Peter M]

No need to force a springer into anything. You just have to figure out what's going-on in that melon, then figure out how to convince them that what you wanted to do, and what he wants to do, are one and the same. My male was abandoned in MN at 1 1/2 years, he knew his name and he knew the two worst things a flushing dog can know, keep away and tug-of-war. Today I can sit my dogs side by each, in the dog park, with dogs all over and send them on command to fetch and retrieve. The other day my pup tried to pull a rooster out of the 6 1/2y/o mouth and I instantly saw that old familiar behavior kick-in. That was the first time I ever nicked her with the collar, but that had to end. For the rest of the day he gave a little tug every time you asked him to release the rooster. I'm anxious to see how he acts this weekend.

Late to this discussion. I'm a springer guy. Regarding the keep away, You need patients . The dog is teasing you and is trying to engage you , if you try to take the bird from him its game on..
Solution just sit or kneel and wait for the dog to eventually come to you .It may take time but show no emotion ,the dog will give in. Once he does take the bird and give lots of praise. I would end the training session at this point. Take a break and try again.