Force fetch

Just curious, but why is force fetch so frowned upon by so many? I've FF every lab I've had and in the end I firmly believe I had a much better dog and one that trained to a higher level than if not FF.

FF is so much more than just a trained retrieve. Although that's probably the main focus for most. For me it also teaches a dog how to deal with pressure by doing the right thing. FF leads into much bigger things during advanced work. It will really make a much more reliable dog in all aspects IMO.

Duckn, I really don't think very many (who frequent this site anyway) DO actually frown on it. I DO think, though, that FF is kind of the default answer a lot of people give when a dog isn't retrieving up to expectations, when the reality is that lots of times there are other ways to address the issue. Some other methods completely meet the owner's requirements. Some other methods take less time (& sometimes $$) than FF. Some other methods are more enjoyable for the owner/trainer & the dog. No doubt, FF works in many cases. No doubt, FF has pros & cons for both the dog & owner/trainer. If I expected my dog to do whatever I want, whenever I want, without exception, I'd probably use FF too. I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that most hunters, who treat their dogs as much more than just tools of the trade, don't hold those requirements for their dogs. But I get why pros use it. They're being paid to train dogs. They don't have years to learn a dog & train it accordingly. They use what works in a couple months. I also agree that FF can lead to an easier time w/ "advanced work". Most owners, I think, don't care about advanced work.
 
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A5... You're doing a lot of generalizing and you may be right in some cases. But I take exception with your thoughts on people who demand obedience from their dogs. I am one of those, and my dogs are companions first, then hunting dogs. But I demand obedience for lots of reasons, and number one is safety. If my dog(s) is running towards a road, whether on a retrieve or just because, when I yell "Hup!" or "whoa!" it's for a damn good reason.

And as a non-pro FF wasn't a shortcut for me. But I did learn a lot about my dogs during the process. Have YOU gone through a FF program?
 
AJ, no, so far I've neither wanted nor needed to do FF, although I started it with my current springer. I didn't enjoy it & my dog didn't respond well to it. Maybe I wasn't doing a very good job at it, but I WAS able to find other ways to accomplish my goals. That's great that your methods have been successful for you for whatever reason you use them. Going out on a limb here, but I think your standards are likely higher than most. For good or bad, I demand obedience from my dog too, just not all the time. If I was an all the time guy, I'd probably have completed FF with Buzz. But I can hup him regardless. I don't consider that "advanced work".
 
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A5, I believe you're right that most dog owners should try other methods first before FF. But that doesn't fit for me. I do have high standards which my wife constantly undermines, but there is another factor. I don't the average bird hunter has the mental discipline and fortitude, or the required desire, to complete FF. It is not an easy process and it requires dedication and the ability to disconnect emotional while training, becoming analytical and proactive.

That works for me because I see myself as a trainer that hunts, rather than the reverse. Is my way best? No, at least not for everyone, but it is best for me.
 
Late to this discussion. I'm a springer guy. Regarding the keep away, You need patients . The dog is teasing you and is trying to engage you , if you try to take the bird from him its game on..
Solution just sit or kneel and wait for the dog to eventually come to you .It may take time but show no emotion ,the dog will give in. Once he does take the bird and give lots of praise. I would end the training session at this point. Take a break and try again.

Yup, good advice. In my dog's case, it's what he was taught by the suburban family who owned, then abandoned him. It's fun for kids to play keep away, and tug-of-war. Just not what I would choose to teach a bird dog. Never seen the behavior from him since a little brush up at the dog park. If you saw the wildlife in my dog park, (on any given day there are Bighorn Sheep, Mule deer, Whitetails, hell last Sunday when I stopped at 2:30 AM on my way deer hunting, there was a fox in the park). Not to mention a lot of poorly disciplined dogs, you would be impressed at how some other idiot's throwaway dog can perform. I can call him off another dog's retrieve with a simple "no" command, at the park or in the field, that's good enough for me.
 
Just curious, but why is force fetch so frowned upon by so many? I've FF every lab I've had and in the end I firmly believe I had a much better dog and one that trained to a higher level than if not FF.

FF is so much more than just a trained retrieve. Although that's probably the main focus for most. For me it also teaches a dog how to deal with pressure by doing the right thing. FF leads into much bigger things during advanced work. It will really make a much more reliable dog in all aspects IMO.

I think FF is only frowned apron by people that have never FF'd a dog! They all seem to have a preconceived notion that it is a brutal exercise that only teaches a dog to grab something. I do not think all dogs need to be FF'ed", but mine will always be. FF is one of the most critical steps to have a "finished" retriever.
 
I think FF is only frowned apron by people that have never FF'd a dog! They all seem to have a preconceived notion that it is a brutal exercise that only teaches a dog to grab something. I do not think all dogs need to be FF'ed", but mine will always be. FF is one of the most critical steps to have a "finished" retriever.

This .......
 
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