Force Fetch/Help

goldenboy said:
LabMan just a word of caution about hunt tests. Do not put him in that situation till he will hold and deliver to hand. Any failure to deliver to hand will instantly disqualify him. Judges hate to see a handler scooping a bird from under a dogs chin. Good luck and keep me posted I want to see how you succeed!
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Goldenboy
HRC only requires delivery to the area of the handler in started..... Personally I think it's foolish and sets a bad precedent that limits how far some dogs can go by imprinting bad habits early...... But at least they get a title (heavy sarcasm).

PS Have you seen the Thistle Rock calendar for 2015? Tom and Lynn out did themselves this year
 
Gatzby said:
Goldenboy
HRC only requires delivery to the area of the handler in started..... Personally I think it's foolish and sets a bad precedent that limits how far some dogs can go by imprinting bad habits early...... But at least they get a title (heavy sarcasm).

PS Have you seen the Thistle Rock calendar for 2015? Tom and Lynn out did themselves this year
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Gatzby It seems to me that Lynne did send me a few pictures or at least maybe i saw it at their house one day when I was there. How do I get my hands on one?

I am not up on all the hunt tests what I do know is that in JH hunt tests if they drop the bird you are not allowed to pick it up off the ground. All I really care about is that they bring that bird back to me and don't drop it because of water, or another flier, or any other distractions. In the field it is really discouraging to see your bird floating down the creek because your dog dropped it in the water. Or worse when your buddy walks up next to you and sends his dog to finish the retrieve! That hurts a man's ego!
 
I definately want my pup to deliver to hand while heeled to my side. Which is what he does with bumpers, he just mouths the bumper and may drop it. I'm trying to train that out of him. One thing I don't have to worry about is drive, he has plenty of it. I practice for the hunt tests like I do because I want him to be able to handle the pressure and have the experience of having to honor other dogs, etc. If it wasn't for this mouthing thing or hard mouth with the bird, I would have probably skipped force fetch. And now I'm not going to finish it anyways probably because as of right now, he will not walk with the dummy in his mouth on/off the table. But, I believe I can work on it other ways and get it going in the right direction. If he consistently is retrieving bumpers, etc, and heeling to my side, then I'd think he'd get the idea that he has to do that with birds also.
 
I don't think it's the HRC's desire to imprint bad habits early, it's all part of the process of young dogs running in Started tests. It gives them a goal of how to reach that next level. Everyone see's them differently. Not everyone's a Pro trainer, and it provides me with the drive to go out and work on things with the pup to make him earn the title's, not be "Given" it.




Gatzby said:
Goldenboy
HRC only requires delivery to the area of the handler in started..... Personally I think it's foolish and sets a bad precedent that limits how far some dogs can go by imprinting bad habits early...... But at least they get a title (heavy sarcasm).

PS Have you seen the Thistle Rock calendar for 2015? Tom and Lynn out did themselves this year
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Labman said:
I don't think it's the HRC's desire to imprint bad habits early, it's all part of the process of young dogs running in Started tests. It gives them a goal of how to reach that next level. Everyone see's them differently. Not everyone's a Pro trainer, and it provides me with the drive to go out and work on things with the pup to make him earn the title's, not be "Given" it.
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I know it is not their desire.... But it's the result way to often! Do yourself a favor and keep training to a standerd higher that what's required. It will pay dividends in the future.
 
Gatzby said:
Goldenboy
HRC only requires delivery to the area of the handler in started..... Personally I think it's foolish and sets a bad precedent that limits how far some dogs can go by imprinting bad habits early...... But at least they get a title (heavy sarcasm).

PS Have you seen the Thistle Rock calendar for 2015? Tom and Lynn out did themselves this year
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I agree. I think our cat could pass a Junior Hunt test.
 
:cheers:

Yah, I doubt that......... Not any dog can run these hunt tests. There's a fair amount of training involved just to pass started hunt tests. I know you guys know that. But yah, I'll obviously keep training so I can reach the highest standard possible. I hope Mike Lardy's Total Retriever Training can really give me some good information on idea's for marking, casting drills, etc. My pup is doing great with casting. I just need information on how to set up lining drills, blind retrieve stuff, etc.....


westksbowhunter said:
I agree. I think our cat could pass a Junior Hunt test.
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Labman said:
:cheers:

Yah, I doubt that......... Not any dog can run these hunt tests. There's a fair amount of training involved just to pass started hunt tests. I know you guys know that. But yah, I'll obviously keep training so I can reach the highest standard possible. I hope Mike Lardy's Total Retriever Training can really give me some good information on idea's for marking, casting drills, etc. My pup is doing great with casting. I just need information on how to set up lining drills, blind retrieve stuff, etc.....
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Get carol cassity's book "Drills for building a retriever". It has handling drills, steadying drills, marking drills, and more. Each drill has a skill level rating, diagram, as well as what to expect both good and bad. And more importantly what to do if it things go wrong. Most diagrams are good, walking baseball leaves something to be desired, this drill needs to be seen to understand but it is hugely benifical. I think gun dog supply carries it.

PS get your delivery solid be for pile work (handling). Trying to teach two skills at once gets pretty muddy in the dogs head and de-values each session.

PPS There is a Weiner dog with a Started pass. He had to stand on a chair to see the marks. Luckily there is so little cover at Kelly Farms he Didn't get lost, he did flounder in the mud during the water series pretty bad. That dog has heart, the dang duck was as big as him. I think there is a JRT that titled a year or so ago in Mississippi!
 
Labman there is one other guy in our area that has had huge success. He will work individually with you and approaches each dog as unique and not all cookie cutter answers. I have been told these things but I haven't observed him in action myself but he looks at the dog's cues that they are sending out to us and trains off what he sees in the dog instead of just expecting uniformity in all dogs. His company is Dynamic Retrievers, I think his name is Tim Springer.
 
Thanks for the Information guys. Appreciate it.

Gatsby, his delivery is really good when were out throwing bumpers/dokken dead fowl trainer in the field and in the yard. He comes back nicely and heels/sits to my side, but mouths the bumper and may drop. He seems very anxious and just rarin' to go so I think he's mouthing it. I'm trying to work on Hold on short 5-6 feet retrieves right now, but he's playing with it, mouthing it more. But in the field, he brings it right back and does a good job except for mouthing. Sorry if I'm confusing you guys. I actually worked with him alot on casting when he was 6-8 months old, he's doing really well on that.

I think as far as returning with the bird and sitting at my side, that'll come with continuing with retrieves, heeling to side each time, etc. I hope.
 
Goldenboy

I totally appreciate all your advice, trust me.

With a wife and two kids, busy lives, etc. We just can't afford to send him to a professional trainer.

Really, he's doing Great other than the mouthing issue/Hold issue. Funny though because it's one of the things that bothers me the most. I want that clean, nice delivery to hand with the bird....... I can't wait for spring to start going to hunt club training days. Upland training is done now.

I think I've done a great job with him so far, so just because he wouldn't go through force fetch like I tried for weeks, or won't hold perfectly right now, he's still one heck of a good dog, and training is still happening and will continue to happen.
 
Labman said:
Thanks for the Information guys. Appreciate it.

Gatsby, his delivery is really good when were out throwing bumpers/dokken dead fowl trainer in the field and in the yard. He comes back nicely and heels/sits to my side, but mouths the bumper and may drop. He seems very anxious and just rarin' to go so I think he's mouthing it. I'm trying to work on Hold on short 5-6 feet retrieves right now, but he's playing with it, mouthing it more. But in the field, he brings it right back and does a good job except for mouthing. Sorry if I'm confusing you guys. I actually worked with him alot on casting when he was 6-8 months old, he's doing really well on that.

I think as far as returning with the bird and sitting at my side, that'll come with continuing with retrieves, heeling to side each time, etc. I hope.[/QUOTE

Think of it this way, it sounds like your dog loves to retreive. My guess if you gave him the choice between a treat or a retreive he would choose the retreive.
When he returns and mouths the bumper what do you do? If you take the bumper and throw it you just rewarded mouthing with the highest value reward possible! You inadvertatantly may be promoting your issue. Take your time and finish hold. It's dang cold here right now take the time to fix this, it will only get worse with real birds. I think it was Lardy that coined the phrase "you own what you condone". Good luck

PS check out CMRC training is always going on if it's light
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I had been working on Hold on the table with force fetching, and I could not get him to walk/hold with the training dummy.

He has Hold down really well.

Regarding your question of what I do when he brings it back to me? I say heel/sit, I say "No, Hold", and he'll still be kind of mouthing it, maybe slow down just a bit. If/When it drops out of his mouth, I instantly grab the bumper and put it back in his mouth, and make him hold, which he will do well if I put it in his mouth and say hold. It's just returning from the retrieve I believe he's excited, mouthing it, and won't hold steady.

But, he will hold it nicely if I put it in his mouth after he drops it. Of course that's not my goal, but I'm hoping he will catch on that he needs to sit and hold.
 
I completely understand what your saying Gatsby, and I'm working on doing exactly what you are saying. I'm making him sit and hold after the retrieve, after dropping saying no, and making him hold it in his mouth.
I basically just started doing this, as I just stopped force fetch as I couldn't get to that next step of walking while holding. I had stopped all retrieving during force fetch.
 
Labman said:
I completely understand what your saying Gatsby, and I'm working on doing exactly what you are saying. I'm making him sit and hold after the retrieve, after dropping saying no, and making him hold it in his mouth.
I basically just started doing this, as I just stopped force fetch as I couldn't get to that next step of walking while holding. I had stopped all retrieving during force fetch.
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Either I am miss understanding what you are saying or you are contradicting yourself. I don't understand how he has "hold down real good" but is mouthing and dropping bumper". This is the problem with Internet training. What you are saying and what I am reading aren't the same.
Tim Springer is in GA for the winter. Cathy Mahr from Retreivers Etc is another great resource she charges $75 for 5 group sessions (retreiversect.com). Jeff Latour of elk river kennels is having a pigeon shoot this Saturday, there will be a lot of good dog people there as well.
This is the last piece of advice I can offer....... If something doesn't go right in training do not avoid it! Stick with it till you achive success. Any holes you leave will come back to haunt you
 
He will sit and Hold whatever I give him until I tell him "Give". Whether on/off the table.

But, when returning from a retrieve, and he heels to my side and sits, that is when he mouths the bumper/drops it.

It is hard to understand things being said as it's easy to take things a different way.











Gatzby said:
Either I am miss understanding what you are saying or you are contradicting yourself. I don't understand how he has "hold down real good" but is mouthing and dropping bumper". This is the problem with Internet training. What you are saying and what I am reading aren't the same.
Tim Springer is in GA for the winter. Cathy Mahr from Retreivers Etc is another great resource she charges $75 for 5 group sessions (retreiversect.com). Jeff Latour of elk river kennels is having a pigeon shoot this Saturday, there will be a lot of good dog people there as well.
This is the last piece of advice I can offer....... If something doesn't go right in training do not avoid it! Stick with it till you achive success. Any holes you leave will come back to haunt you
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