Force Fetch/Help

Labman

Labman

New member
Hey

I am in the middle of force fetch with my just now 11 month old black lab puppy. I have been for the last 5 weeks or more. I started with the glove in mouth, that went well. Then went to Hold, he holds really well on the table and off of the table, also used ear pinch. The big step I cannot get past is he will not move from the sit position with the training dummy or bumper in his mouth. He immediately jerks his head away and spits it out. I am not able to hold it in his mouth to even take a step. I've used a leash to pull him towards me, he just freezes up/spits it out the second I give a little pull. The reason I am trying to force fetch him is because when he retrieves, he mouths the bumpers constantly and will drop it when he heels to my side. And I know force fetch is the foundation for everything I want him to do.

He is an excellent retriever, very obedient, quarters well in the field, does everything well, and this is driving me nuts that he won't hold the bumper and move or walk with it. His father is a Grand Champion and Mother is in the process of going for the Grand Championship. If I could get by this step, I believe he would do well with the rest of force fetch. I'm at the point of giving up.

Does anybody have any suggestions? I am not able to afford a to take him to a Pro trainer. I love this dog though, he's a pleasure to have, and I want to run him in hunt tests, and take this dog pheasant/duck hunting for the next 12 years. He won his first Started Hunt Test last September at 6 months old, and I'd like to continue with him. I do belong to a retriever club, but I really have no help coming from anybody in the club. I've gotten some advice but everyone seems so busy these days.

Sorry for the long winded post!
 
You are more advances than me at force fetching. I usually send them to a trainer to finish some of that stuff. One thing I remember from past training tips and things I try. When we get stuck at one point, take a step back, rebuild confidence in the things they know how to do, then move back to force fetching. I know when I get frustrated then I am not the trainer my dog needs and I fail them because of my inabilities and lack of patience. Good luck, keep us posted. By the way where do you live in MN? I do have a retired guy who gets dogs from me that has been training longer than I have been alive! He could be a good resource for you. He loves dogs and has handled many dogs through hunt test titles. Send me a PM if interested and I will give you his contact info.
 
Thanks for the response Goldenboy.

I live in the Northern Suburbs of Minneapolis. I have taken steps back and continue to work on "Hold", but I have to get to the next step because he's been "Holding for weeks now". I'm stuck. I do get frustrated with it, but I also continue to remind myself that I need to be patient with him. He's a good pup, and I owe it to him to do it right.
 
Labman said:
Thanks for the response Goldenboy.

I live in the Northern Suburbs of Minneapolis. I have taken steps back and continue to work on "Hold", but I have to get to the next step because he's been "Holding for weeks now". I'm stuck. I do get frustrated with it, but I also continue to remind myself that I need to be patient with him. He's a good pup, and I owe it to him to do it right.
Click to expand...

I am guessing you belong to Land O Lakes?
I shy away from diagnosing FF online as it is very hands on and each dog is different. Don't get discouraged as 5 weeks is nothing, FF can take much much longer, especially your first time.

The transition from hold while sitting to hold while moving is a big one. What do you do when he spits the bumper? Will pup pick a bumper off the ground with ear pressure? Or will he only take from hand? My response would be to apply ear pressure (or toe hitch) till the bumper is back in his mouth. But this is a. Dry simplified diagnoses, and a somewhat canned answer
Steve
 
I was specifically told by a professional that I needed to get the dog holding/walking on/off the table before going to the ear pinch. However, I had already started the ear pinch because that is what a different pro stated, sportdog, Freddy King.

But, as much as it sounds wierd, my pup didn't get screwed up by anything I did. He was introduced to the table properly, we went to the hand/glove hold, transitioned to holding wooden training dummy, bumpers, 2 x 4's, etc.. He was nervous on the table after pulling him back over on the table to work on hold, etc, so I went to the floor and we started the hold process which he is doing fine at. So I guess should I contine to do the ear pinch until he gets the idea that when he moves and drops, he'll get his ear pinched? Will that eventually lead to him holding/moving?

You are correct though, I'm sure each dog is different with how they react to force fetch.

Thanks for your response.
 
I'll echo "Goldenboy a.k.a. Joel's comments. Training a dog to be a field trial champ seems to be different than a field/hunting situation.

My main concern in the field - find the downed bird, bring it back without making a meal out of it. If the dog drops a live bird short, the bird takes off. Usually this happens only once and the chase resumes.

I don't want the dog to hold on the the bird forever - just until I say "drop."

Question: what happens when you throw the dummy a few feet away??

Good Luck from Minnetonka
 
Labman said:
I was specifically told by a professional that I needed to get the dog holding/walking on/off the table before going to the ear pinch. However, I had already started the ear pinch because that is what a different pro stated, sportdog, Freddy King.

But, as much as it sounds wierd, my pup didn't get screwed up by anything I did. He was introduced to the table properly, we went to the hand/glove hold, transitioned to holding wooden training dummy, bumpers, 2 x 4's, etc.. He was nervous on the table after pulling him back over on the table to work on hold, etc, so I went to the floor and we started the hold process which he is doing fine at. So I guess should I contine to do the ear pinch until he gets the idea that when he moves and drops, he'll get his ear pinched? Will that eventually lead to him holding/moving?

You are correct though, I'm sure each dog is different with how they react to force fetch.

Thanks for your response.
Click to expand...

This is why I shy from FF questions. If you have access to a pros help and have started on his method I would go to him.... Not the Internet. I am willing to help but like a said earlier their are to many variables

Steve
 
He will bring the dummy back and heel, excited, mouthing the bumper, drop it occassionally, even though he's been holding well during force fetch.

I stopped all retrieving during force fetch, but a couple weeks ago I took a short break for 2 days, and threw him some retrieves because I thought he really needed a morale booster. :)

He's loves to retrieve, there's just something psychological about walking/holding that bumper/dummy.
 
I don't have access to a Pro, really, it's whom I bought the dog from and he's a great guy, but I feel like I'm bugging him when I ask him questions. And he's in another State. So I am looking for advice I guess, trying to figure this thing out. I've studied force fetch so much, but I can't get my pup past this stage in the process.







Gatzby said:
This is why I shy from FF questions. If you have access to a pros help and have started on his method I would go to him.... Not the Internet. I am willing to help but like a said earlier their are to many variables

Steve
Click to expand...
 
I assume you are doing walking hold with a bumper. A "lower value" object like a wooden dumbell might work better. Go back on the table and make sure hold with the dumbell is super solid with a leash on, take as many days as needed. I should add to Have him hold on table both standing and sitting. Have him go from a sit to a stand on the table. Now go to the floor in a distraction free environment and repeat all the steps from table. Now try and get him to go from a sit to a stand while holding. All with a leash on.
All I am trying to do is rreally simplify by breaking down all the steps in a non rewarding atmosphere. The only reward pup gets is from you when he does good. Chomping on a bumper is a pretty good reward to a high drive retreiver! Good luck, take your time. It will happen.

Sunday the 15th Central Minnesota retreiver club is having a informal trial in St. Cloud. Come up there will be lots of good dog people around
 
No, he will not walk with bumper in his mouth.

That's the step I'm trying to do in the force fetch process.

He'll retrieve with bumper in his mouth, heel with bumper, but mouths it and drops it.
 
I'm in the Bird Dog Training forum now, isn't that a good place to be? :)
 
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If the dog is sitting with the bumper and you walk away from her and encourage her to come without a command how does she react? Maybe try to get her moving without commanding heel. I had a dog about 20 years ago that never did hold good. But after going through the ear pinch she held fine.
 
Labman: I used West Country Kennels (Brian) at Glencoe. He's been at it for 20? years and at one time was with Tom Dokken.

A great guy, usually at the Sports Show in March, with a booth. Might be a good resource for you...
 
He has been doing well with Holding on/off the table but last night I tried putting E-collar on way up on his neck so I could hold his head really well. Had him hold and tried to walk with him, he wants nothing to do with it, jerks his head and spits it out. I do not think it's going to work.

I am now trying 5-6 foot retrieves, he's heeling to my side, sitting, and still mouthing the bumper. But I am being patient with him and telling him to hold and putting it in his mouth correctly and working on hold when he brings it back. I think with alot of repetitions, this may work.

Any advice is great.

He's a great retriever, Loves to retrieve, I'm just trying to get the delivery to hand while heeling/sitting at my side without him mouthing it. We have been Upland Training with the retriever club the past month and a half. He retrieves the pheasants, may stop 5-6 feet from me and drop bird, then finally make it over to me, but then won't sit and hold bird yet. He doesn't do that with bumpers. But I think our training will take care of that.

His Quartering and Hunting instinct is fantastic, he's very obedient in the field and looking forward to some Hunt tests this spring and summer.
 
LabMan just a word of caution about hunt tests. Do not put him in that situation till he will hold and deliver to hand. Any failure to deliver to hand will instantly disqualify him. Judges hate to see a handler scooping a bird from under a dogs chin. Good luck and keep me posted I want to see how you succeed!
 
He ran his 1st started hunt test at 6 months old, won a ribbon. Delivered bird to area. Second day he delivered bird and decided he wanted to keep it. Wouldn't let go:)
We'll continue to work on delivery everyday, and hopefully by spring, and with more club trainin in spring, I'll know more about getting him the Started title, and go from there. I'm going to order Lardys total Retriever training soon. EXPENSIVE! Gotta wait to get paid. :cheers:
 
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