Ethanol = Big Pollution Problems

T

tmrichardson

Banned
Sad state of affairs, big question is why is this industry with all it's problems still held up with huge tax breaks and mandates that ethanol be used in all gasoline?

http://www.startribune.com/local/10...P4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUac8HEaDiaMDCinchO7DUs

Best line...from the top ethanol booster...""It isn't like Minnesota's plants are dirtier than others around the country," he said. "We have a more vigilant pollution control agency than other states and it holds them to a higher standard."
 
Ever since my soph year of college, I have been asking people what they really know about ethanol. Like the performance issues it can cause and the fact it takes more energy to make a gallon of ethanol than it puts out. So we are fighting a losing battle. I do like the fact that it makes gas cheaper and in my focus, the difference from plus and regular only comes in to effect when the price difference is less than 10 cents. I do like bio-diesel. That is a great idea. I'm talking the used veggie oil mix, and it does have great savings and good output in power. I wish they would sell more diesel car in the US because it would give us more of a market for bio-diesel and bio-diesel is about as cheap as anything per gallon or cheaper. I had a friend who actually did a business plan on bio-diesel and found he could make a decent profit at $1.10 per gallon.
 
easy boys there are alot of jobs that are feeding peaple do to ethanol over half of my friends work in some form for the ethanol plant here
 
Gove, I'm not trying to knock anyone working in it. I'm just stating some facts. Not trying to start an argument either. Also, it would be foolish just to shut them down. Those plants are too big and cost too much money for that to do anything good for any economy.
 
i'm not trying to start an argument either just stating that with the good sometimes comes the bad no matter what the situation
 
If we could get the switch grass thing down pat. It's much cheaper to grow, takes far less water, less frequent replanting/tillage. Provides nesting cover for all kinds of game and non-game wildlife.
 
Gove County Britts said:
i'm not trying to start an argument either just stating that with the good sometimes comes the bad no matter what the situation
Click to expand...

Uh oh, I don't wanna stir up the hornets nest either, but I just read an article about the impacts ethanol production is having on the livestock markets. One estimate suggested that nearly 45% of our corn from last year was used to make ethanol, which ultimately will drive the cost of protien through the roof if the trend continues. If I get time, I'll find a link for you guys.....it is a credible source.

Now, the real problem with this is that I don't wanna get my food from China or Russia. I'd rather get it from right here at home. Do we wanna buy oil from the Arabs or cat meat from China? Like GCB said, there is bad with just about everything good. There's much more to this issue than any of us can see!
 
onpoint said:
If we could get the switch grass thing down pat. It's much cheaper to grow, takes far less water, less frequent replanting/tillage. Provides nesting cover for all kinds of game and non-game wildlife.
Click to expand...

I think everyone on this site would be in support of this proposition!
 
We are kidding ourselves if we think that farmers are going to switch from corn to switchgrass. There simply is not enough money in it even with cellous ethonal.
 
Only government subsides keeps them going now with corn and beans. Why wouldn't those same subsides make up the difference with switch grass? Many farmers already raise and sell hay.
 
There has not been subsidies on corn and beans for most farmers for the past few years. The only payments is LDP which the price has been above.
 
Last edited:
Ethanol is bad policy

Correct there currently are no price support payments for corn or beans. LDP payments are suspended due to the actual cash price being higher than the LDP. I work with a number of big livestock producers, who for the last several years have struggled with wildly erratic costs forncorn and beans, without significant increases in the value of pork and beef, to offset the cost of production. Milk has just turned the corner in the last 60 days. Ethanol is not sustainable, period. It's a loser, philisophically,( search using food for fuel), it's a poor substitute for fossil fuel, ( read any data on BTU conversion), it's a enviornmental disaster, ( water useage beyond belief,per gallon. Sorry, but the ethanol experiment with corn fails even the economic smell test, without the 2.00 per bushel subsidy from Uncle Sam. What the ethanol farce does best is give an example wealth distribution American style, by a few self serving senators and congressmen to a favored few, without any concern for the common national well being. All your friends, relatives, acquaintances, who benefit are just further examples of wealth distribution, some of yours, and mine to them. You might as well write them a check. The US government could write every employee of every ethanol plant in the US a check to make up for the loss of employment and we would still be ahead, probably financially, most assuredly environmentally, and philosophically. Heck, the plants are going broke now at breakneck pace. I am not educated enough to say on switchgrass, except to know that NONE of the current generation of ethanol plants will handle it without huge ( I presume) subsidized payments from the govt. ( you), to refit them. This does not apply to bio-diesel, but you have sulfuric acid issues, and ground contaminants to deal with in the residue. Switchgrass? we still have water supply and waste water issues. Beyond national security, as in we can't get access to other fuel to fight a war of survival,( Germany WWII), there is no justification for corn ethanol, or coal gassification, on any level. It's not my opinion it's just the facts. Read and weep, it's your money and way of life, by world standards inexpensive, high quality food, clean cheap and available, water, we are pumping down the fill pipe. I can't even buy real gas in my area, just the splash blended garbage with ethanol.
 
It has to be admitted it has a direct affect on pheasants and pheasant hunting. I should probably declare that corn ethanol has definately made me some decent $$ over the years. I still think it's a boondoggle past it's prime but I don't expect any sudden changes, most of the plants have political backers and many rural communities near them are heavily invested. At one time in MN that including some pretty high ranking officials with direct ownership in plants. They are still poking around with government paychecks, just not necessarily making laws anymore....

Biomass operations are working now but the technology to convert switchgrass or prairie mixes to ethanol is still in development. I wouldn't short-change them in comparison with corn--which takes a sign. $$ investment just to stick in the ground. I know I've heard multiple times from some savvy farmers that they have done better with bumper crops other than corn in recent years, due to lower planting/tending costs of other species. You can't just look at the market price, you have to factor in total cost of growing.
 
I don't want to start a fight. There's nothing to fight about! If a person personally benefits in some way from ethanol, or at least thinks he does, that individual will act and believe in their own perseeved best interest. That not withstanding, its a poor way to run a railroad or a country. I'm sure the wall streeters who got rich on the economic titanic we let them create, are just as smug and confident that they were and are justified, and deserving. Lipstick on the PIG is still a pig, whether it's your pig or not. If it's your pig, fine, it's the current legal policy of the land, good luck, I don't expect you to go to work and resign, or start riding a bicycle, ( to hard to put a dog box on), but at least acknowledge the facts, and recognize it will not last. Get it while you can.
 
I don't know if its old news but they are going to announce approval 0f 15% ethynol in gas on wed the 13th. Can't believe it, as what it costs us taxpayers. supposedley it will be approved for 2007 and newer cars and it will be posted at the pump. Only the government could come up with such a stupid idea. Don't put it in your outboards.
 
moellermd said:
There has not been subsidies on corn and beans for most farmers for the past few years. The only payments is LDP which the price has been above.
Click to expand...

What about counter cyclical payments? There is a great web site called Environmental Working Group. It lists all subsidies for every farmer in every state. It tells the top 10 farms and the amount given in your state. It also breaks down to every county and lists every farmer and how much they have received since 1996. The amounts will blow you away. The largest recipients in the U.S. are 2 rice farmers who have received 1/2 a billion. If you are a farmer and have received goverment money you are on the website. Corn ethanol should be ditched and let market forces dictate prices.
 
steele said:
What about counter cyclical payments? There is a great web site called Environmental Working Group. It lists all subsidies for every farmer in every state. It tells the top 10 farms and the amount given in your state. It also breaks down to every county and lists every farmer and how much they have received since 1996. The amounts will blow you away. The largest recipients in the U.S. are 2 rice farmers who have received 1/2 a billion. If you are a farmer and have received goverment money you are on the website. Corn ethanol should be ditched and let market forces dictate prices.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of those payments are milk payments and crop insurance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top