Disappointed.. again, and a question.

reddog

reddog

Well-known member
As I sit at my computer looking out over my prairie restoration (tall to the west: Indian, Big Blue and a little switch and short and forbs to the east: LBS Blue Grama, June Grass, sideoats, etc) again this year I am disappointed. Not in the 5 year old stand, which was absolutely beautiful yesterday, but what it looks like today, after a 3 inch heavy snow. The snow flattened it again.. 2 years in a row.



Im thinking that if I really wanted bird habitat that would stand up to our winters, I should be growing cockleburs, kochia, iron weeds,foxtail,ragweed, pigweed, and marestail. Everything I have strived to eliminate.

I walked my tall prairie yesterday looking for one of my chukars, and jumped a doe out of it. I think I was 5 feet away from her when she left. This morning, I can stand beside the field and know there there isnt any deer left in there..




Along another line, because I know there are lots of guys with more knowledge than me that can help.

I have been hunting a 1/2 section in South Dakota for ten years. Out of lack of knowledge, or ignorance, nothing has been done to it since it was put into crp, 15 years ago.

What started out as a rank,nasty,tough to hunt/walk switchgrass stand has morphed into partial switch, and mostly brome. What can be done to bring back the switch?

Fire is not an option...

I have often heard about a "light discing". I think the root system of brome is fairly short, but switch is fairly deep.

Would a light discing break up the brome roots enough for the switch to kick back in, or would it take another seeding of switch?

The owner will do whatever it takes, but wants to know the best option.

I think this spring, we are going to test disc 20 acres as see what that brings for results, but the clock is ticking, and the brome is taking over.

Suggestions? Anyone..
 
Red dog,

I would recommend sending a PM to Prairie Drifter. I'm sure that he can assist in your project. I'm sure that a light disking cannot hurt.

On a side topic, how’s that Breeze dog been doing? I might be looking for a new addition next year to my pack of dogs. I'm sure she's got a set of wheels with Dixieland and Rawhide bloodline. I’ve got a granddaughter of both and she is increadable.
 
Many years ago I had a pasture that had become infested with downy brome, a cousin of brome grass. I sprayed it real early with atrazine and roundup as it is an early grass. I no tilled some annual varieties to cover it up and produce some forage. In july I had many varieties of warm season grasses like big blue even green needle which is not that much of a warm season grass. I did that 2 years in a row and completely renovated the pasture. There may be more acceptable herbicides to use now but the principle of killing an early cool season grass before the warm season grasses break dormancy should still work. I would check with local grass managers to get a second opinion. But the guy I had spray it told me it would not work.
 
OKIEGunner said:
Red dog,

I would recommend sending a PM to Prairie Drifter. I'm sure that he can assist in your project. I'm sure that a light disking cannot hurt.

On a side topic, how’s that Breeze dog been doing? I might be looking for a new addition next year to my pack of dogs. I'm sure she's got a set of wheels with Dixieland and Rawhide bloodline. I’ve got a granddaughter of both and she is increadable.
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OKIE,

You know, she was 6 months old when I got her last year, and green as all getout. Very little training had been done, other than conditioning. Her owner could not keep/train her because of some impending health issues coming down the line.

I wasnt able to hunt her much last year, other than to see the potential. This summer I took her back to Wrenegade for some formal training and he took her as far as he could, without running trials. Then in early September, he picked her up and took her out west for 3 weeks of sharptail hunting experience, and when he dropped her off, he told me to just take her hunting and she'll be fine.

Well, thats what I did this year. More than any other year I've been alive. I considered it an investment in my new dog, and an exercise program for me.

I started out the year, hunting over the old dog till I got 2 birds, then I brought out Breez. (Bob said I should've named her "Tornado":D ) My goal was just to run as many birds thru her nose, as I possibly could, and not to shoot unless her performance was nothing less than perfect . This worked well, and she learned every trip out, to the point that she became dependable enough for the last month of the season, that she was the first dog down, and I shot several limits over her, without ever getting the old dog down. The old dog didnt like it one bit, either.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that she has been a complete joy to hunt over this year, and I have enjoyed watching her go from just being a dog, to a true hunting dog!

Her retrieve drive is as large as I have ever seen in a GSP. I dont know if she gets that from the Dixieland line, or the Cooper line, but it is pretty amazing to see. She is extremely soft mouthed also, which is nice too.

As far as her drive, she drops a gear after being in the field about 3 hours. I have found that I like that lower gear better, because she tends to outrun her nose at times, but that has gotten lots better now that she knows what is expected of her.

She is one tough SOB, Ill say that much for her. She doesnt hold a grudge when there is correction, never pouts and always has a good attitude, plus she can take alot of electricity. Lots more than my old dog. I can nick the old dog at 2 or 3, and the little dog I cant phase at 7 or 8 with a nick...

As far as her manners in the house and the truck, she is amazing. She lays on the front floorboard of the truck, and never moves, whether I'm in the truck or not. With that said, would I leave her in the truck for a 3 hour hunt with the old dog?... not on your life. Not because I didnt think she would behave, but because I dont want to go thru correcting it, it she didnt. In the house, she is a joy to be around, in fact, shes laying right beside me now.

Highly recommened one if you get the chance. I almost bought another dog last month, There were some Cooper sons available in Mn that were ready to go, but I decided to hold off till I retire to get another GSP and a traditional Black Lab.

Thanks for asking...

Ill PM Prairie Drifter and ask him to look in here..

Thanks
 
haymaker said:
Many years ago I had a pasture that had become infested with downy brome, a cousin of brome grass. I sprayed it real early with atrazine and roundup as it is an early grass. I no tilled some annual varieties to cover it up and produce some forage. In july I had many varieties of warm season grasses like big blue even green needle which is not that much of a warm season grass. I did that 2 years in a row and completely renovated the pasture. There may be more acceptable herbicides to use now but the principle of killing an early cool season grass before the warm season grasses break dormancy should still work. I would check with local grass managers to get a second opinion. But the guy I had spray it told me it would not work.
Click to expand...

haymaker,,
Thanks, That was another option we were considering, but forgot to put it in the orginal post.

I did that on a small piece of my restoration this spring, and it worked perfectly. Im gonna do it again this spring on a larger scale..

Thanks
 
reddog said:
Im thinking that if I really wanted bird habitat that would stand up to our winters, I should be growing cockleburs, kochia, iron weeds,foxtail,ragweed, pigweed, and marestail. Everything I have strived to eliminate.

Fire is not an option...



Suggestions? Anyone..
Click to expand...

First off, why is fire not an option? Secondly, why did you strive to eliminate their foodsource? Weed seeds make up the majority of an upland birds food plus they provide good structure. A monoculture so to speak of grasses wont be as good as those areas that are weedy. Sounds to me like you need to setback your grasses and let some weeds take hold. A fire right about now would accomplish this I do believe or running a disc over it maybe a little bit later.
 
jaytee said:
First off, why is fire not an option? Secondly, why did you strive to eliminate their foodsource? Weed seeds make up the majority of an upland birds food plus they provide good structure. A monoculture so to speak of grasses wont be as good as those areas that are weedy. Sounds to me like you need to setback your grasses and let some weeds take hold. A fire right about now would accomplish this I do believe or running a disc over it maybe a little bit later.
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Fire is not an option on the 1/2 section because of the logistics, location and liabilities.

If I set back my grasses, then Canadian thistles take over, and in order to control them, I can kiss my forbs goodbye.. I hit a bunch of it with Milestone last year, and while it works wonders on the thistles, its devastating to the forbs. It almost made me sick, killing the forbs but it had to be done.
 
Reddog, got your PM, hope this helps. Brome is very agressive. I'm guessing you're up north, that would mean your climate is more conducive to cool-season grasses to start with and that there was brome in or adjacent to the field before the switch was planted. Your best option for setting back the brome is to spray with Plateau (not Journey). If the infestation is fairly widespread, then a broadcast spraying of the whole site would be in order. Spot spraying misses or escapes in following years should put you on the path to better coverage. Switch is somewhat sensitive to Plateau, so check the label. The other option is to wait until the switch is dormant and spray with Roundup. You'll get the same end without worrying about the switch. You may still have problems with Canada Thistle invading, spot spray if you can there. Atrazine would also take care of the brome, but it's a ground water contaminant and is a last resort in my book.

On the native plantings, I am just guessing about a lot of things here, but here goes. I'm guessing that the patches may be small and may have little upwind protection. If that is the case, a snow trip of 3-5 rows of shrubs and evergreens on the upwind side will allow much of the moving snow to pile up downwind of the windbreak leaving the grass more vertical and available to the birds. Use species that are thick, but don't achieve too much height. Avoid species that tend to escape the planting site. Clumps of the same species out of shrubs out in the grass will also provied escape cover post storm. Some strips of forage sorghum might also provide more vertical structure to your holding for use when the snow is new and wind packed.

Again, I'm guessing about where you are and what you have. If you're in a drier clime, it will be harder to get the height you need to combat the depth of snow you may be dealing with. That's where the woody cover comes in. You want to plan now for the problems that they bring to the table. You don't want them to be predator attractors or to increase management costs if they spread outside the planting itself. Cane strips can be annual plantings that give similar benefits, but they are more susceptible to being broken by the snow and rendered worthless.
 
Thanks PD,

The 1/2 section of Switchgrass is in central South Dakota.

My native restoration project is in Iowa.. and only ten acres..
 
I've had a lot of luck on the THISTLE using Milestone. You need to apply it after a good hard freeze, this puts most forbes dormant but not the thistle and takes in the milestone. I've done this twice and it has worked well for me.
 
Thanks Jim, Ill give that a try next time if I have to. Its just hard to wait that long, letting all those thistles go to seed for next years problems..
 
I had posted some time ago, and I think you hit the nail on the head. WEEDS. In my area, it's ragweed, ironweed,wild sunflower. I have prairie grass as well on a small scale. Efforts by me and a farmer friend in NE Kansas verify for nesting, rearing, and winter cover, nothing beats annual weeds. Can't be beat for cost or simplicity either. Got a failed planted grazing area about 40@,right now, grown up in ragweed, never got grazed,orchard and clover never got a good hold, a plant about every 10 foot or so. Might be every pheasant and quail left in NE Kansas in there. Sure doesn't resemble the pure prairie grass acreage, except for prairie chickens, the chickens love that prairie, but I've seen them in the weeds too!
 
moellermd said:
I bet the neighbors just love that habitat plan.
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He has around 1300@ around it so I doubt it bothers anyone, not that he cares. Why is it when you want to mow every ditch, tile every low spot, or bale all the stubble, in the name of profit, it's O.K. after all it's your ground, but when somebody lets a little go because as Un-American as it seems, profit isn't everything, you think it's offensive? It's his ground, whats the difference to you or the neighbors?
 
oldandnew said:
He has around 1300@ around it so I doubt it bothers anyone, not that he cares. Why is it when you want to mow every ditch, tile every low spot, or bale all the stubble, in the name of profit, it's O.K. after all it's your ground, but when somebody lets a little go because as Un-American as it seems, profit isn't everything, you think it's offensive? It's his ground, whats the difference to you or the neighbors?
Click to expand...

If I dumped my tile or ditch onto yourland and gave you the water problem than you would be very justified in taking issue with me.
 
Fact is, all the cropland in the area will have herbicide sprayed anyway. A few additional seeds means nothing.
No matter how clean your fields are of weeds in this years crop, next crop before spray will be full of weeds .
 
moellermd said:
If I dumped my tile or ditch onto yourland and gave you the water problem than you would be very justified in taking issue with me.
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But of course you do dump your tile and ditch on to me and everybody else downstream! Your land eventually drains into the Missouri River basin, with it's load of nitrates, pesticides, hebicides, and synthetic hormones, a real smorgaboard of goodies that you and your neighbors flush down stream requiring municipalities from Sioux City to New Orleans to filter out resulting in a high cost and a growing nitrate "dead zone" in the gulf. So in addition to farm programs, tax breaks, to tile and ditch, we subsidize you in paying the additional hidden cost of allowing you to farm the way you want. I understand that civilization of all sizes pollutes, and there are trade offs. That no man or producer is an island, which I assume is your point. Might serve to remember your neighbors might be several hundred miles away, and we have an obligation to those as well. Forgive me if a few random ragweed seeds seem like a big dust up over absolutely nothing of substance. Believe it or not, there's a lot of ragweed in the county I refer to, 40 acres here or there in the great scheme of things doesn't amount to much, except maybe the survival of a few birds. You have made it clear, while I'm sure you'd love to hunt it, apparently, we can be equally assured we wouldn't find it on your property.
 
oldandnew said:
Believe it or not, there's a lot of ragweed in the county I refer to, 40 acres here or there in the great scheme of things doesn't amount to much, except maybe the survival of a few birds. You have made it clear, while I'm sure you'd love to hunt it, apparently, we can be equally assured we wouldn't find it on your property.
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No you would not find it on our ground, you probably would find a few 5 acre plots of CRP on steep hillsides or consistantly wet areas. You would also find some bufferstrips and unmolested cattail sloughs that could be drained but are not because it is not worth the fight. Those are realistic solutions.

Yes you are correct that the water does need to go some where. It is interesting to here guys complain about how some ground that has never been wet before is wet now even though they drained the 2 sections next to it into this one.

By the way OldandNew you just inspired me for a new thread.
 
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