Deer ticks, guns, dogs and hunting

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Permethrin Repellents

The DOD Chemical Protection System: The Department of Defense (DoD) utilizes a system of two chemical components in conjunction with the field dress uniform. The EPA approved components of this system include the insecticide permethrin and the insect repellent deet (N, N-diethyl-m-tiluarnide) in concentrations less than 33%.

Note: Not all permethrin is blended for the purpose of bonding to fabric. Most permethrin is agricultural which is for pest control on vegetation. Its design purpose is to stick to plants thus protecting the plants. Veterinary products are designed to adhere to animal skins/hair or premises and are not for fabric application. Some permethrin is formulated for treatment of medical conditions such as head lice and scabies. The formulations are not interchangeable mostly because of solvents utilized. Always refer to manufacturers label and use instructions.

Permethrin is virtually non-toxic to humans and no systemic effects have been reported. In EPA and FDA tests, it was uncommon to have any skin reddening, rash or other irritation. When used as a repellent, permethrin is applied to exterior clothing where it dries and bonds to the cloth fiber. This water-based formula is non-staining, odorless and has exceptional resistance to degradation by sunlight (UV), heat and water. Although permethrin is approved for skin application under certain circumstances such as head lice formulas, it is not applied to skin as a repellent. Permethrin does not bond to skin (stick) and is quickly deactivated by skin's esterase action into inactive compounds. Because of these attributes permethrin offers no repellent benefit on skin. It is only effective when used as a clothing treatment. Deactivation of permethrin on skin occurs in approximately 20 minutes, When placed on clothing it will last 2 to 6 weeks (even up to 1 year with special application) and will even last through weekly launderings. With the long history of success permethrin has achieved, it is best not to second guess these extraordinary results. By following the directions provided on the product you can be assured of results that achieve protection at or near 100%. Any variation of instructions that indicate using less permethrin on clothing will result in diminished performance. Follow the direction exactly and you will be amazed at the performance of this product.

Permethrin Mosquito Tests: The early history of permethrin development involved tests on mosquitoes conducted by the US Army and Air Force. Tests showed that when lightweight uniforms were treated until moist (approximately 3 ounces) the permethrin alone (0. 5% solution) gave 97.7% protection from mosquitoes and 99.9% protection when used in combination with deet (33% solution). Two detergent washings did not diminish mosquito repellent and killing action of permethrin-treated uniforms.

An interesting side note: The effectiveness of permethrin can be shown in the following report highlight that was reported in a very matter of fact statement. During testing in the Everglades, "Mosquitoes were also repelled because of the side-stream effect caused by numerous treated uniforms within the same general location. This required that the test site be moved to locate more mosquitoes!" Now that's performance . . .

Permethrin Tick Tests: Test on ticks conducted in Massachusetts concluded that 100% protection was provided against the Deer tick (Ixodes Scapularis) which is the primary vector of Lyme disease in the Midwest and Northeast. The same outstanding results occurred when testing the Western Black Legged tick, Lone Star tick, American Dog tick and Brown Dog tick. Similar results have been found with other tick species throughout the United States and Europe. Two detergent washings did not diminish repellent killing action of permethrin-treated uniforms. In tests, ticks that crossed only 10 inches of treated fabric fell from the uniform, later dying due to this limited exposure.

Note: Military application of permethrin (Permethrin Arthropod Repellent) varies from civilian application in that 4.5 ounces are applied to the uniform and the remaining contents of the 6 ounce container used to treat mosquito netting. The difference in application also results in increased protection. It is specified that "reapply after six weeks and sixth laundering." The additional 1.5 ounces doubled the 2 to 3 week protection realized from the civilian application of 3 ounces. Full protection is realized by use of permethrin AND application of standard issue repellent approved for skin application (3M Ultrathon)

DEET (N, N-.diethyl-m-tiluamide): is an approved repellent for skin application. Exposure to high concentrations of deet can pose some limited health hazards. At the time concentrations of 33% as provided in the 3M Ultrathon product were chosen by the U.S. Military for its superior performance and high margin of safety. Up until the 3M Ultrathon was chosen the military had been using a 100% deet. It was uncomfortable to wear and easily damaged certain materials synthetic and plastics. Since the 3M Ultrathon introduction, some new developments have been made using deet in special micro encapsulated formulas that have tested quite well and last up to 20 hours between applications against certain insect species. Deet-based products are available in a wide variety of formulas that can address the very specific needs of the individual traveler, outdoors person, family member and even young children. Specific blends with other repellents to repel biting flies are called composites, while others formulas have been added to sunscreen for convenient dual-purpose application.

Early research on deet showed that performance dropped off when concentrations of 35% or higher were tested. As an example, if a 30% deet concentration offers satisfactory repellent action for four hours, an assumption that a 60% deet would last eight hours is not correct. The 60% product may only last about 5 hours. In the use of standard deet formulas, it is more effective to use lower concentrations of deet with more frequent application than to assume the higher concentrations to be longer lasting. They are not. Most brand-name deet-based products already have a deet range from 15% to 33%. Once the threat of insect/tick bite is over, the repellent should be washed off. Deet by itself tested between 85% to 89% effective at repelling ticks (deet does not kill either ticks or mosquitoes) and 97% against mosquitoes.

The DoD system consists of both permethrin treated clothing and deet applied to skin. The use of one without the other will undermine the system and increase the risk of insect or tick bite. Many non-deet products are available on the market and are not part of the DoD protection system. They show ineffective repellent performance and are not recommended for any situation where disease transmission is a threat.
 
Ranger- the family grew up on a resort in Northern Minnesota-
June the mosquitoes were enrelenting- you couldn't go outside, in the evening, you were in trouble- unless you were sprayed down with something- off- we had cans everywhere for us and the tourists- if it didn't have deet the mosquitoes would suck right thru it- we regularly used a fogger upwind so the breeze would drift it over the resort

so lets see- that's 8 kids 2 parents- from childhood to adult- except for dad passing away at 97- all of us are healthy-

I'd say 40 years of using deet on kids of all ages is a pretty good tests

I've also never sprayed Frontline on a dog- I apply on their top back once a month- as dirrected- pups, adults, cat- been doing it for a long time- never had flea or tick problems- so in essence- I'm saying if someone has flea problems- you've most likely got an infested yard and house- flea dips are great unless you buy the cheap crap
 
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Onpoint - Do you have any brand names and places where permethrin is available over the counter?

Back in my flea problem days, I never had anyone recommend a repellant like Frontline. This was early 80's. You are right about the yard. Clean the dog and house, the dog goes outside and they jump right back on. A terrible problem. I really disliked Florida for it's other insect problems, as well. Cockroaches were terrible and repeated spraying of the house and office, etc., were necessary. I much prefer WI where the only thing we're worried about is ticks and skeeters.

We had a good frost here Sunday morn, which should help knock back the skeeter population.

A lot of corn was coming off here around Wausau until the torrential rains we received last week. It's supposed to be dry and fairly nice this week. I hope the sun comes out and the breeze blows a bit to dry things off. Relation in IA was taking off corn and beans, held up due to the rains, too. They expect to have everything pretty much off by the IA opener.
 
Guys I don't know where you would buy permethrin over the counter. I jusr was doing some research and came across this.

I'll try and find a place/brand that may have this permethrin
 
I bought two bottles of permethrin at Gander Mtn yesterday--it is marketed by 3M. Also treated both dogs with Frontline this morning--the type that you put on the loose skin on their necks behind their ears where they can't lick it off. I have used Frontline for a few years now, it seems to be effective--sounds like this year will really put it to the test. I also vaccinate the dogs against Lyme disease. Lost a beloved lab to Lyme back in the days when little was known about it and no vaccine was available. Headed for grouse woods on monday.
 
Ranger- I disliked Florida because there were no seasons
and agree- no seeums came out before dusk- fireants, bees, and aligators! didn't care to let mine out and range- glad to say one fall was enough for me
 
jeffstally-I don't know how you say Frontline is poison to dogs- I've been using it on pups and adults for over 20 years-

I've yet to hear any facts that it is harmfull to a dog when used as dirrected

Two different Veterinarians have told me that it is hard on a dog's kidneys and liver. The chemicals are absorbed through the skin and enter the bloodstream where it has to be filtered out or broken down.

I just don't buy the idea that something that kills fleas and ticks dead won't have any adverse effects on the dog.

I also believe the EPA is currently looking into this as well.

The main thing is that my little boy crawls all over our dogs hugging and kissing them and I don't want him ingesting those chemicals.
 
I wonder if Skin So Soft would work?

My mother-in-law was mentioning this recently. I can't recall the discussion. It might have been when we had our little flea issues a couple months ago.

I wouldn't want my toddler crawling all over my dog with that stuff either. When we apply Advantix to the dog, I don't even touch her for a few hours until that stuff is absorbed. She get all greasy and nasty. I hate the thought of applying something that is bad for me, but is "good" for her. wtf? BUT, what choices do we have? I don't apply the topical stuff monthly unless I know we're going to be in it. My reasoning is just to keep its use as minimal as possible.

We have some tick issues here in the headlands, but nothing quite like what you're talking about. I thought pulling 10 off after an afternoon was a lot. boy, I've got it easy.
 
Two different Veterinarians have told me.

I just don't buy the idea that something that kills fleas and ticks dead won't have any adverse effects on the dog.

I also believe the EPA is currently looking into this as well.

The main thing is that my little boy crawls all over our dogs hugging and kissing them and I don't want him ingesting those chemicals.

you don't live in farm country do you- probably someplace like Los Angeles

every vet office I've been in has it or Advantix on the counter for sale
what do you do for termites, cockroaches, ants, spiders, mice, flys
if your dog is outside much I'd think you'd be carefull of your little one arround it the way you say

EPA- what a joke
 
Picked about 60-70 Deer Ticks off the dog and like 30-40 off me. We won't be going back to that area. ridiculous...I want to know exactly where they came from. I was told Asian exotic deer brought them here(Fallow Deer).
 
Threads like these really bother me, perhaps they shouldn't but they do. So much misinformation!

Tick borne disease is a pretty big issue, please take the time to educate yourselves much better if you live in areas where they are common.
 
Yikes!!! I wanted to go grousing in the Minnesota forest, but now anytime I se two trees get together, I high tail it to the prairie. Lots of dog ticks, but nothing like what you guys are describing.
By the way, I have used Hartz or whatever of the same stuff that is cheap and my oldest dog of 11 yrs. is still going strong. Go git'em Slugger!
 
you don't live in farm country do you- probably someplace like Los Angeles

every vet office I've been in has it or Advantix on the counter for sale
what do you do for termites, cockroaches, ants, spiders, mice, flys
if your dog is outside much I'd think you'd be carefull of your little one arround it the way you say

EPA- what a joke

No, I don't live in L.A. I live in a semi-rural area outside of Minneapolis. We have 17 acres. There isn't much for ticks at our house other than in the spring. My dogs live in the house so I just check them over every day.

I know the EPA is a joke, but I was just making a point that there is concern out there over these products. I cannot believe that those chemicals can be good for your dogs.
 
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