Control without the collar

[bobeyerite]

It may work it, seems to me I seen something like that on a TV show one time. They were training Labs to do blind retrieves.......Bob

 

[Shadow]

the one pup on the right has got it in his head- I haven't done anything since Jan the end of the season- bare ground arround here and he hits it and just flies till he hits the standing corn- 1/2 mile away-

this morning I cut a length of rope 120'- going to hook him to it and see if I can get him to understand the holler and whistle means to turn in

figure best to play at bit with the retrieving dummy first-

what I'll do is connect him up- holler/blow the whistle and when he ignores yank him- it's worked with other hard headed Britt's- I figure he'll test me and it may take some time- another thing I did with a Britt was attach a drag- we'll see- think he's going to test me- could be interesting

 

[Calisdad]

Shadow it looks like the one on the left is the boss. Also looks like they have their own Dish TV.

 

[1pheas4]

It may work it, seems to me I seen something like that on a TV show one time. They were training Labs to do blind retrieves.......Bob

Wow! Nothing like reinventing the wheel huh?...............................Awsome.

Thanks for you input Bob. -1pheas4

 

[Shadow]

Shadow it looks like the one on the left is the boss. Also looks like they have their own Dish TV.

chuckling- they all get along but if the pups get roughhousing a bit to much he breaks it up

pheasants strutt arround- they could but don't jump the fence- open the gate and three of these are outtahere- I don't allow them to cross the road- way to far before the crops start- 3 turn and come in- bugger on the right gave me the finger and was off- sheese- he I have to get ahold of- so

 

[bobeyerite]

Shadow, you didn't say what the dogs watch onthe DishTV. I know Dish does not have many upland bird shows.......Bob

 

[BritChaser]

Britts are So Pretty

the one pup on the right has got it in his head- I haven't done anything since Jan the end of the season- bare ground arround here and he hits it and just flies till he hits the standing corn- 1/2 mile away-

this morning I cut a length of rope 120'- going to hook him to it and see if I can get him to understand the holler and whistle means to turn in

figure best to play at bit with the retrieving dummy first-

what I'll do is connect him up- holler/blow the whistle and when he ignores yank him- it's worked with other hard headed Britt's- I figure he'll test me and it may take some time- another thing I did with a Britt was attach a drag- we'll see- think he's going to test me- could be interesting

Your dogs are gorgeous. I especially like the one on the left. Very alert and interested.

 

[Shadow]

BrittChaser- thank you- that's Shambo's Dark Shadow's son- he'll be three next April- he's caused me some long distance walks last year- he pretty much carries himself like that- when running, walking, or on point

I showed up at a NSTRA trial when he was 5 months- they wouldn't allow me to run him

whew- he has wheels- tested me last year- finally got a handle on him- but the pups don't quite see him as so fast- think that is a minor problem I'm seeing now- hey- we can keep up with you- then they forget- it's not about head racing

ah Bob- I get quite a lot of hunting programs- watch very few- Britt's will sit and watch- but loose interest- same as me

 

[Shadow]

I did hang arround at the trail grounds

these two and me- we shot 23 quail starting after the last brace- since they though he was too young- some stayed around and watched- week later I was told I shot to much- but could run him as long as he was competitive

I was a little upset- nope- he's never been in a NSTRA trial

but I am thinking- might just show up with 4 Britt's someday maybe down in Texas

 

[cockerfan]

Going back to the original post, I hunt and train without collars. I used to use a collar on my 2.5 yr old cocker, but sold the collar and now go without. If one of my dogs makes a transgression, I get to it as quickly as possibly and scold it in the most effective way for that dog. Usually just a light shake of the scruff, sometimes just voice though. It doesn't take long for the dog to understand that it needs to listen all of the time. I've found that consistency and a whistle are the greatest tools to training and hunting without the collar. The whistle makes sure you have their attention (how do they block out voices but not the whistle?), and consistency lets them know they ALWAYS have to listen. Last weekend I spent about 12 hours in the field with my older cocker, and she didn't have a collar on. There was never a time that I would have used it even if I had it. She's definitely learned to listen and hunt without it. I feel that it's very liberating to have a dog that responds without the threat of the prongs in its neck, although I understand that the collar can be very useful for some dogs.

To reiterate what I wrote above, it's very important to go TO the dog to chew it out for not listening. When I was much younger, I had a lab that was fairly strong willed. I made the mistake of chewing it out AFTER it came to me. I didn't realize it at the time, but now I realize that I was only encouraging it to not come to me or listen to me. Live and learn...

I also make sure to use plenty of verbal praise with my dogs. When they listen, I let them know they did a good job. This is basically working off of the premise that dogs really do want to please us, it's just that sometimes we have to let them know what will please us.

 

[bobeyerite]

Cockerfan, I agree that the whistle will do more than your voice ever will. A lot of hunters don't realise that the dog has a lot of noise hunting through the cover. The wind blows it away at times and many other such things. The whistle is the best and most important tool in my opinion. My 11 year old Britt Tony I put on his e-collar so he knows everyhting is for real. Most of the time I don't even turn it on.......Bob

 

[cockerfan]

Cockerfan, I agree that the whistle will do more than your voice ever will. A lot of hunters don't realise that the dog has a lot of noise hunting through the cover. The wind blows it away at times and many other such things. The whistle is the best and most important tool in my opinion. My 11 year old Britt Tony I put on his e-collar so he knows everyhting is for real. Most of the time I don't even turn it on.......Bob

I just read one of your previous posts on this thread (post #18). I think we've got similar ideas. When training my dogs, I'm always walking a zig-zag pattern and giving two pips and sticking my arm out in the direction I'm going. The dogs get on board quickly and realize they need to change directions quickly to keep up with me. This really helps to keep them from lining out, and the busier they are going back and forth, the less I need to worry about keeping them in close. They also happen to cover the ground more effectively too

 

[oldandnew]

chicken or egg? hard headed dogs or electronic dog collars?

I've stayed out of the discussion till now. I am generally opposed to electronic collars,for two reasons, 1.) I think they are overused, or abused by a vast majority of proponents. 2.) I believe that it leads to the continous breeding of dogs who are so hard headed, and stubborn, that only a collar, will turn them. I refuse to use them, and I won't breed a dog you need one for, because I consider it a flaw. It's amazing to me that we were able to train and finish bird dogs for a couple a centuries before we had electric collars, most learned to retrieve without toe pinching, force fetching, other draconian measures. The ones that didn't we washed out and didn't breed. Same as I do now. Frankly, I laugh a little at the guys who unload their truck and strap on beeper- shock collar combinations, some even radio telemetry gear, it's a wonder they have room for shells. Yes, I know I'll get a fire storm of protest from the "collar conditioning cowboys", after all the collar made everybody an expert dog trainer. No need to understand the whys and wherefore of behavior, or spend a couple a years refining point , back, retrieve. We can breed the deer chasing, trash running, hard mouthed , hard headed, dog and fix it with the collar later, or sell it's offspring to next guy.

 

[Mordis]

Old and new, i have to disagree with you. Take for instance beagle and other hound types. They are so independent that you do not exist when they are off leash. They couldnt give a flip about the fact you just whistled at them or verbaly gave them a command. The addition of the ecollar gives the beagler a very large measure of controll over his dog...

Back before ecollars and other controll devices, the people who had beagles for rabbit hunting had lots and lots of beagles. That way when they inevitably lost one or two on the days hunt they had plenty more to replace it with. Given the fact that beagles are so independent and that obediance training is hit or miss, and the fact that they place near last in the inteligence of dogs list, the e collar gives alot of control. I dare say that the beagler is better off with the e collar on his dog becuase of the fact that you can stop him from chasing deer, or just running off out of sight forever more never to return.
Sure you may not need it for GSP or ESS but they are far far smarter and much more trainable and biddable.

They take to training faster and easier, and i believe you shouldnt need it for a good upland dog. But there are some breeds(such as beagles) that it makes your training life much much easier.

Beagle rescues are full of lost beagles from hunters who thought they had a well trained beagle only to watch in horror as their beagle runs off while they futiley run after them shouting commands at the dog.

The hound breeds are better off with the e collar then they ever were with out it. I have never seen a beagle on youtube or in a magazine that would respond to commands as well as the beagles that were trained with ecollars.

 

[oldandnew]

I have very little hound experience, limited to a beagle I had as a boy, which I adopted from a shelter, as you predicted. My comments were limited to what I see with bird dogs, I am not making any bold statements about hounds.
As a boy we would leave my coat in the ditch, after invariablly losing the beagle, with food and water, come by the next morning, she would be there, happy to head home. Liked her but never wanted another either!

 

[Fenway]

"Frankly, I laugh a little at the guys who unload their truck and strap on beeper- shock collar combinations, some even radio telemetry gear, it's a wonder they have room for shells."


I put a beeper collar on my Setter, I got to know where he's pointing or sometimes just where he's at.
P.S. I would love to have an Astro also, but don't want to spend the cash yet, maybe next year, how many shells do you need anyways.

I also use a collar on my ES he doesn't really need it very often, but I like it for safety, he's not road smart.
I'm sure there's something about you I would also laugh at also, like living in Missouri maybe?

 

[oldandnew]

"Frankly, I laugh a little at the guys who unload their truck and strap on beeper- shock collar combinations, some even radio telemetry gear, it's a wonder they have room for shells."


I put a beeper collar on my Setter, I got to know where he's pointing or sometimes just where he's at.
P.S. I would love to have an Astro also, but don't want to spend the cash yet, maybe next year, how many shells do you need anyways.

I also use a collar on my ES he doesn't really need it very often, but I like it for safety, he's not road smart.
I'm sure there's something about you I would also laugh at also, like living in Missouri maybe?

Pretty much the highbrow response I expected. Beeper, O.K. Really need a shocker on a grouse dog? Setter no less? "Really doesn't need it that much", maybe really not at all. But it's a great pacifier for you. I love you guys who get your knickers in a knot, because you resemble a remark made in general, not directed at you. Go back to changing and charging batteries, and changing the contact points, to keep that wild setter under control.

 

[WeimeranersRock]

Old and new, i have to disagree with you. Take for instance beagle and other hound types. They are so independent that you do not exist when they are off leash. They couldnt give a flip about the fact you just whistled at them or verbaly gave them a command. The addition of the ecollar gives the beagler a very large measure of controll over his dog...

Back before ecollars and other controll devices, the people who had beagles for rabbit hunting had lots and lots of beagles. That way when they inevitably lost one or two on the days hunt they had plenty more to replace it with. Given the fact that beagles are so independent and that obediance training is hit or miss, and the fact that they place near last in the inteligence of dogs list, the e collar gives alot of control. I dare say that the beagler is better off with the e collar on his dog becuase of the fact that you can stop him from chasing deer, or just running off out of sight forever more never to return.
Sure you may not need it for GSP or ESS but they are far far smarter and much more trainable and biddable.

They take to training faster and easier, and i believe you shouldnt need it for a good upland dog. But there are some breeds(such as beagles) that it makes your training life much much easier.

Beagle rescues are full of lost beagles from hunters who thought they had a well trained beagle only to watch in horror as their beagle runs off while they futiley run after them shouting commands at the dog.

The hound breeds are better off with the e collar then they ever were with out it. I have never seen a beagle on youtube or in a magazine that would respond to commands as well as the beagles that were trained with ecollars.

I think this was very well put Mordis. I am not a fan of collar overuse. I too believe in training in the yard and the more you put into the dog the more you get out of it. With that being said and I know some breeds are worse than others I have yet to see a good bird dog or hound that isn't stubborn.

It was stated by Bobete I think that his dog is collar wise. This shows the intelligent level of the dog and dogs in general or perhaps a careless use of the collar and some may argue. But lets face dogs are smart animals. I have heard arguments from the purists that they never use collars. Ok then tell me what do you do when a dog that is fully trained and hunts well but starts to ignore commands when you are in the field. Now don't give me the answer that you take them back to yard training because a dog is smart enough to know you got control of him in the yard but not when 40 yards from you in the field. Perhaps kenneling the dog would be the answer I don't know but I get so few trips a year to the field with my dog I for one don't want to kennel it. So I use a collar in that instance to reduce my frustrations along with my companions that hunt with me.

I have seen dogs that hunt great without a collar and I have also hunted with those that refuse to use a collar and have been very frustrated with the hunt. Both hunts were with the same dog owner same blood lines in dogs. Most of us have limited times to the field and if the collar provides a higher quality hunt I am all for it. After all a dog was put on earth for man to use but not abuse.

 

[FCSpringer]

Pretty much the highbrow response I expected. Beeper, O.K. Really need a shocker on a grouse dog? Setter no less? "Really doesn't need it that much", maybe really not at all. But it's a great pacifier for you. I love you guys who get your knickers in a knot, because you resemble a remark made in general, not directed at you. Go back to changing and charging batteries, and changing the contact points, to keep that wild setter under control.

The original post I put up asked what do you do, not why you don't like it. So why don't you enlighten everyone. That would be helpfull and bettert a breed in your eyes so please tell them how you do that.

There are several situations I use a collar that has nothing to do with breeding. Say for example when steadying a dog to the flush. If you use one or the other, be it a check cord or a collar whats the difference. Do you use check cords ? Hmm same as a collar. I use both. "But" not until the dog has learned to 1/4, find birds, retrieve, and listen first.

For example I now have two I am 1/4ing, they are learning to use the wind, they find birds, they flush nice, they chase , they retrieve, and do it again. Both have not had a collar strapped on. But when come time to steady, it is an important tool, Because when you finish up with a check cord the dog is free running. When that dog breaks you have two choices, 1 run after them yelling and screaming, or 2 nick them. It in this situation has absolutely "NOTHING" to do with breeding.... They already have shown soft mouth, no fear of water, bird finding, hard charging, listening,use of wind,control, retrieving and a decent delivery.Only thing left is a desired look and health screning for a breeding prospect. Some dogs I will not use a collar more then a couple times in the steady process either. Now a GPS collar may be a undesired tool by many as well, after all why should a guy hunting have to go find a dog in the next county not to practical when we can not tresspass.

Now how do we do all this without the collar??, Please continue, I have yet to comment. but it is easy. My rendition will be rather lengthy though, so I am waiting.

 

[Fenway]

Pretty much the highbrow response I expected. Beeper, O.K. Really need a shocker on a grouse dog? Setter no less? "Really doesn't need it that much", maybe really not at all. But it's a great pacifier for you. I love you guys who get your knickers in a knot, because you resemble a remark made in general, not directed at you. Go back to changing and charging batteries, and changing the contact points, to keep that wild setter under control.

Highbrow? your the one judging and laughing at everyone with a e-collar and beeper. My dogs came to me already e-collar conditioned so I stay with them and yes it is a pacifier for me. I can stop my dog from running in the road which is a big safety issue where I live, my Setter would not last long without it.
A beeper or a bell are the only thing that keeps the Wolves from eating your dogs up here.
I don't have my knickers in a knot, because I don't know you, but when you make such judgmental generalizations, and idiotic statements about people you might get called out.
How do you find your dogs when on point?