Chokes matter?

First thing I thought was BB your crazy for shooting that open of a choke! But then I got to thinking about your sample size. Opinion and knowledge are one thing, but what works. Tomahawker now knows his son shoots a lot better with open chokes, I’d keep doing it and see if it gets even better. It’s so hard to duplicate a wild flush and how we present our shot that I wonder if getting super technical about it really matters. You guys convinced me to try using lighter loads, it may be in my head but it didn’t work for me and I went to a hotter load. BB what you got me thinking about now is how far are the birds I’m shooting at? I’m gonna start measuring my shots, maybe they’re closer than I realize or further. If you don’t keep trying to evolve you gonna get passed up. Love the banter, it’s the fire you guys have that keeps me wanting to be better.
 
12 gauge benelli IC choke with 6 shot lead for this guy, all season. I also prefer to keep my shots to 30 yards or less, and I usually don't even raise my gun if a rooster flushes beyond that. I also prefer a high velocity load which couples nicely at shorter ranges.

I suspect the OP's description of shooting flare nares flying towards the shooter are a bit skewed when it comes to chokes though. Hunting wild birds in December isn't even on the same planet as that.

Using a full choke at a flying target doesn't sit well with me. The pattern is so small that the chances of actually hitting the target are too minimal. I use a full choke for turkeys in the spring. Obviously they are on the ground and I aim for the head/neck area at 50 yards or less.
 
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I use 2 3/4” lead #5’s @ 1200 fps…1 1/4 oz shot. Work just fine, supposedly pattern better than the “hot”, faster loads…pretty sure many of us are suckers for the marketing and believe we need the cooler sounding/looking ammo…we don’t. At least I don’t. One of my unscientific patterning tests I do is to set a Gatorade bottle at 30, 35, 40 yards and shoot it…see how many pellets hit it…it’s not just one or two! I put large pieces of cardboard at various distances and compare the patterns of different chokes out of the same guns with the same shells…very interesting. Look at the data our comrade has provided…look at pellets in a 30” circle at 30 yards with IC choke, regardless of ammo used…even with #5 lead, still well over 100 pellets…I’d guess at 40 yards it’s still 75-100 pellets…look at the data at 40 yards with LM choke, over 150 pellets, IIRC. This is my 31st season hunting SD, I’d say the first 2 I didn’t kill many…no dog. That changed in ‘95. I’m on my 6th dog, 3 are still alive, 2 hunt. I typically make 7-8 hunts per season, not counting ND/MT for sharpies/huns. I own good hunting land, and more importantly, have access to lots of good/very good private land…and I hunt decent/good public land midweek pretty commonly. There are few, if any, seasons that I hunted less than 20 days in SD over the past 30 years…most of the time it’s 30, give or take. I probably have hunted 800 days minimum in SD…the first 2 years we drove around, knocked on doors, hunted lots of public, etc,…not the case the last 28 or 29 years. One farmer had 1000+ acres in CRP that we had access to most of the time we were there…unreal bird #’s for 14 years. Rare are the days that I don’t shoot 3…some, yes, especially if it’s a partial day. Mostly it’s 3+ birds…my point is, I’ve had lots of shots…many, many, many thousands…lots of misses…lots and lots of hits, too…I don’t do lots of analysis, but I just gravitate to what works for me. I’m left eye dominant but shoot right handed…do pretty well at clays, but not great. About a month ago I was hunting solo, and was following a dry creek bed through picked corn…my 3rd bird flushed 30-35 yards ahead and flew away at a 90 degree angle…I mounted my beretta AL 391 20 gauge, IC, using 2 3/4” 1 oz #5 lead, 1220 fps…Remington XLR….can’t recall if I shot once or twice…feathers flew in a “poof” and were floating in the air…bird lying in the ditch, could see it perfectly…alive, but stationary. 45 yards minimum, probably 50+. I had vitals exposed…I did shoot twice, I recall REALLY leading it on the 2nd shot. I’ve used that IC tube in that gun ever since I acquired it…I use steel once in a while, so I’m essentially using Mod choke then. I was given about 75 rounds of 2 3/4” hevi shot #6 (Remington box of 10) about 20 years ago…IC choke…most lethal gun/load/choke combo I’ve ever used…mid December, SD, dropped 20, recovered 19, stone dead…maybe hevi shot patterns tighter, I was told that about some 12 gauge rounds I bought this fall (older ammo). Bottom line, I’m a path of least resistance guy, I use what’s easy and works. If I was a really good shot I’d consider slightly tighter chokes…maybe I’d use my LM tube in my ultralight at times? I get lots of close flushes…and medium flushes…and long flushes…I feel I’m well equipped for 15-40 yard shots…I’m open minded, will consider new ideas. I’ve just spent so many days afield, with so many guys, and have observed so much…I have confidence in IC choke in most single barrel guns. If I was hunting a large cattail slough, I’d perhaps tighten up…and go with #4 lead if I had some. 5 days and counting! 🍻🥳👍
 
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I spent a few days last week in South Dakota on private ground that gets hunted some. Can't remember that I had any shots under 30 yards. Got limits on two days and 2 birds the third day that was a shorter time hunting. Gun was a SxS 16 ga shooting home loaded 1 1/8-5s through IC/Mod chokes. This gun tends to shoot tight, tested the Mod choke at 40 yards with the load used last week and got 92% in a 30" circle with 175 hits. Now this was only one test pattern so it's not conclusive, but every bird but one that I hit was dead in the air. I've threatened to use the Cyl tube(actually .005 constriction) but at 30 yards the pattern is just too open and patchy. Thinking next year I'll go with the cyl tube with 6s for more pellets and mod with 5s and load with a slightly more open pattern.
 
ole_270 said:
I spent a few days last week in South Dakota on private ground that gets hunted some. Can't remember that I had any shots under 30 yards. Got limits on two days and 2 birds the third day that was a shorter time hunting. Gun was a SxS 16 ga shooting home loaded 1 1/8-5s through IC/Mod chokes. This gun tends to shoot tight, tested the Mod choke at 40 yards with the load used last week and got 92% in a 30" circle with 175 hits. Now this was only one test pattern so it's not conclusive, but every bird but one that I hit was dead in the air. I've threatened to use the Cyl tube(actually .005 constriction) but at 30 yards the pattern is just too open and patchy. Thinking next year I'll go with the cyl tube with 6s for more pellets and mod with 5s and load with a slightly more open pattern.
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I patterned a 16 fox sterlingworth that‘s IC/M…couldn’t believe how tight the M barrel was! At least with the ammo I was using…
 
This one is really tight. Like I posted above the cyl tube measures .005 constriction(really skeet 1), the IC - .011(skeet 2), Mod - .0185(Heavy mod). The load tested in the other post was with a European wad no longer imported that has a reputation for really tight loads.
 
I’d love to see data regarding what chokes were used in model 12’s…lots of full and modified…some IC…maybe lots of the latter? Seems to me what grandpa, or dad used, had lots to do with the next generations choices…
 
Great response to this thread! There were 4 hunters total, 1 dog. We had 8 pheasant, 20 quail put out. I was always in the middle with my dog, who hunted great btw. It seemed every bird flew towards my son, meaning his side of the line. I personally saw this young man have THE best day shooting in his life. We shoot old school doubles, he normally shoots a Lefever 20 made in 1925 fixed chokes M/F. He grabbed the twin to this gun by mistake, choked C/IC. And proceeded to shoot the lights out. No they weren’t wild birds, but neither is he Nash Buckingham. Keep yer powder dry and run em to me.
 

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benelli-banger said:
I use 2 3/4” lead #5’s @ 1200 fps…1 1/4 oz shot. Work just fine, supposedly pattern better than the “hot”, faster loads…pretty sure many of us are suckers for the marketing and believe we need the cooler sounding/looking ammo…we don’t.
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Here are a few more of my pattern numbers and a writeup I did on the results that touch on your comment.

12ga 2 ¾” Game-Shok vs Premium Upland High-Velocity vs Super Pheasant Loads

Are you really getting any benefits from the more expensive “Premium” or “Super” pheasant loads on the market? Well, let’s see what the pattern board can tell us about some of these loads and how they perform in my gun and chokes.

Patterning results from a 12-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels using Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot inscribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

12 GA 2 3/4" FEDERAL GAME-SHOK HEAVY FIELD LOAD
1 ¼ oz #5 lead (224 pellets) @ 1220 fps
30 YARDS – IC / pattern 173 (77%)
40 YARDS – Mod / pattern 145 (65%)
50 YARDS – Full / pattern 109 (49%)

12 GA 2 3/4" FEDERAL PREMIUM UPLAND HIGH-VELOCITY LOAD
1 ¼ oz #5 lead (216 pellets) @ 1400 fps
30 YARDS – IC / pattern 152 (70%)
40 YARDS – Mod / pattern 126 (58%)
50 YARDS – Full / pattern 84 (39%)

12 GA 2 3/4" WINCHESTER SUPER PHEASANT LOAD
1 3/8 oz #5 lead (234 pellets) @ 1300 fps
30 YARDS – IC / pattern 186 (79%)
40 YARDS – Mod / pattern 149 (64%)
50 YARDS – Full / pattern 113 (48%)

It’s obvious from the pattern numbers that the Game-Shok load shot tighter patterns (IC / +7%, Mod / +7%, and Full / +10%) than the Premium Upland high-velocity load with the chokes tested.

The Winchester Super Pheasant 1 3/8-ounce load started out with 10 more pellets than the 1 ¼-ounce Game-Shok load and it did put a few more pellets (IC / +13 pellets, Mod / +4 pellets, and Full / +4 pellets) in the patterns than the Game-Shok load. The question you have to ask yourself is… Are those few extra pellets in the 30-, 40- and 50-yard patterns really providing any noticeable benefit to killin’ pheasants?

It’s clear to me that you could save some money and reduce recoil by shooting the relatively slow 1220 fps Game-Shok load and not really forgo any pheasant killin’ effectiveness. Heck, the slower Game-Shok load put 24 more pellets (a 29% increase) in the 50-yard pattern than the Premium Upland load and had only 4 fewer pellets than the heavier Winchester Super Pheasant load. Just because they are labeled “Premium” or “Super” loads, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are “better” at killin’ pheasants!

That’s my take, now you can be the judge!
 
I hear lots of comments by hunters about recoil…if they’re talking about it, it’s possibly an issue…I’ve flinched before when patterning and something has gone amiss…empty barrel, whatever…I’m a big guy, I don’t consider recoil to be an issue…maybe it is? Again, I don’t shoot hot loads…unnecessary, IMO.
 
A 6-6.5 lb gun, standard field loads, possibly a more open-choked gun…interesting to see what happens if you’re used to a heavier, tighter-choked gun with the heavier/faster ammo….
 
benelli-banger said:
I’m a big guy, I don’t consider recoil to be an issue…maybe it is? Again, I don’t shoot hot loads…unnecessary, IMO.
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I don't think size really has anything to do with it. We're all adults here.

I think the issue is the weight of the shotgun. I use a Benelli (montrefeltro) and when I tried 3 inch shells once for waterfowl, it was ugly. That thing kicked like a steer. I was going to try it with a turkey load but once I felt the recoil with a 3 inch waterfowl load, I said the heck with that and simply bought a bigger, heavier shotgun for turkey hunting that can handle more powerful loads instead.

The magnums actually made me flinch and I would miss shots. Nothing more than a 2 3/4 inch round goes through the monty anymore.
 
Bob Peters said:
Hey Tomahawker, I think it's great that you had such a nice day at the preserve with your young son, get them out there and get them hooked on hunting and shooting. That's awesome that he dropped a bunch of birds, I'm always happy to hear of a new or young shooter having some success. Don't listen to KEO, he is just knowledgeable enough to think that he knows everything, but he has often been proven wrong, although he'll never see the truth of it. He puts out an opinion and won't listen to anyone. I'm not even saying he's wrong about everything, but he's wrong enough. I've read the canon of all shotgun wing shooting literature, and you know what? Not one author recommends over constricting your barrel. The one thing they all say is that to a man, most upland shooters making a mistake on chokes are going too tight. Brister, McIntosh, Brown, Grooms, not a one reccomends going to tight chokes. To tell truth, at the most common shots we have on upland game, a fringe hit is more likely on close flushing birds with a tight choke than an open one. How many grouse hunters shoot a full and fuller? How many skeet shooters? Shotgunning is always part science and part art, as long as you're thinking about it and trying to improve, you are doing the right things.
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Bob, i just have strong opinions backed up with facts. A lot of people disagree with those because of their own personal experience.

Let's take this thread for instance. I am NOT a great shot, but I have not personally crippled a pheasant since 2020. Why? Because i have shot near 1,000 patterns in recent years checking waterfowl, dove, and pheasant loads and I know my ranges and what my shell does. I shoot combos that have virtually no chance to let a bird get through crippled. I have missed once this year, zero cripples with my "tight" chokes. However they just sound tight when reading it on here, they really arent. Once you shoot a 30yd pattern with a skt/ic choke and find holes big enough to put your hat in, you will understand and then wonder how many birds you put the pattern right dead center on but thought you missed. I know probably 10 people personally that shoot open chokes for ducks and pheasants, the coincidence is all of those people have never patterned their gun. All of those people are chasing crippled birds when I hunt with them, and all of them will tell you its the best choke you can use. Ive also seen plenty of birds be "missed" or so the shooter thought, however they were in fact hit and kept right on going.

Again, i have had zero cripples in the last 2.5 seasons. I know you shoot open chokes bob, so have any cripples recently?

Maybe i just know enough to think ive never had a cripple. Who knows. Or maybe its knowledge as a result of hundreds of hours at the range patterning shells and doing my due diligence to make sure i do know what i am talking about. But yeah, no sense in listening to me.. i am just a know it all
 
benelli-banger said:
Over the past 25+ years, I’ve hosted 100+ hunters, probably double that. It’s common for guys to show up and not know what choke is in their gun…and, not know what they’ve got for shells…even fairly experienced hunters. Many are frugal, and shooting up what they’ve got before buying more ammo…lots of 7.5 lead, 6 steel, crap like that…😡😡😡😡 I end up helping look for crippled birds…happy to, but frustrating when no thought goes into their gun/choke/ammo choice. Before the hunt, I give my 2 cent advice, and offer to sell suitable shells if I have some…guys will commonly listen.
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7.5? No! 28 ga? You better be close, and no wind. 20 ga? Lead 4s magnum. 16 ga. 4s.lead.12 ga? 11/4 oz. Lead 4s magnum. 10 ga. ? Lead 4s.Turkey? 3 inch Lead bbs.extra full.
 
gimruis said:
I don't think size really has anything to do with it. We're all adults here.

I think the issue is the weight of the shotgun. I use a Benelli (montrefeltro) and when I tried 3 inch shells once for waterfowl, it was ugly. That thing kicked like a steer. I was going to try it with a turkey load but once I felt the recoil with a 3 inch waterfowl load, I said the heck with that and simply bought a bigger, heavier shotgun for turkey hunting that can handle more powerful loads instead.

The magnums actually made me flinch and I would miss shots. Nothing more than a 2 3/4 inch round goes through the monty anymore.
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I’m being serious about size, maybe it’s not relevant…I hunt with some guys under 150-160 lbs, I’m over 300…could be an issue, I don’t know, but I routinely hear comments about how hard certain guns/loads kick…while hunting, it’s never crossed my mind…I would maintain that there are several factors, and you mentioned several relevant ones…I’d say hearing protection is one, size of the shooter COULD be a factor, etc. I assume most guns are mounted properly, but not always…clothing can play an issue…I tend to wear the same thing all the time, the variable is a 2nd polypropylene T shirt at times…I don’t find I’m catching my recoil pad in weird places near my shoulder…lots of factors, I believe. But again, I hear comments about recoil pretty commonly…my vote is for standard loads, partially for recoil reduction, mostly due to better performance and lower cost…
 
KEOutdoors said:
Bob, i just have strong opinions backed up with facts. A lot of people disagree with those because of their own personal experience.

Let's take this thread for instance. I am NOT a great shot, but I have not personally crippled a pheasant since 2020. Why? Because i have shot near 1,000 patterns in recent years checking waterfowl, dove, and pheasant loads and I know my ranges and what my shell does. I shoot combos that have virtually no chance to let a bird get through crippled. I have missed once this year, zero cripples with my "tight" chokes. However they just sound tight when reading it on here, they really arent. Once you shoot a 30yd pattern with a skt/ic choke and find holes big enough to put your hat in, you will understand and then wonder how many birds you put the pattern right dead center on but thought you missed. I know probably 10 people personally that shoot open chokes for ducks and pheasants, the coincidence is all of those people have never patterned their gun. All of those people are chasing crippled birds when I hunt with them, and all of them will tell you its the best choke you can use. Ive also seen plenty of birds be "missed" or so the shooter thought, however they were in fact hit and kept right on going.

Again, i have had zero cripples in the last 2.5 seasons. I know you shoot open chokes bob, so have any cripples recently?

Maybe i just know enough to think ive never had a cripple. Who knows. Or maybe its knowledge as a result of hundreds of hours at the range patterning shells and doing my due diligence to make sure i do know what i am talking about. But yeah, no sense in listening to me.. i am just a know it all
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I agree you should test. I don't, and have lost 12 birds this year.I use IC. I HAVE A SWEET 16 WITH FIXED FULL.I love that gun, but I'm streaky with it.Maybe I need to test some loads?
 
Just one pattern to show is all, then I will leave the thread. Sometimes is good to look at a visual instead of just percentage #s. The duck is not real size, the whole paper is 48". Its maybe the size of a chukkar.

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