Bird dog qualities

carptom1 said:
What Buck is saying is the majority of GSP's are not strong retrievers as related to other strong retrievers. ( My daughters pom-chi will retrieve her small ball back to me as often as I will throw it. Heck I bet she could take the Labradoddle too:D ). I have watched my Lab's, and others, consistently smoke pointing breeds in the field to the point of submission. They mark well, and crash cover with reckless abandon.

I don't think there is a perfect breed. My last couple Lab's have not been great house dogs. They are a little high strung. Don't get me wrong they will eventually settle down in the evening. They take that energy to the field and marsh, so I wouldn't have it any other way.
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Carefull Tom:D
Keep It up and that shorthair will be fetching you your Crow!::(:D
 
I don't think he meant that NAVHDA plays a role in them wanting to retrieve. I think he was just stating that the dogs that are bred by NAVHDA people tend to be bred with an emphasis on their retrieving and water abilities. Probably the most popular of those gsp's come from Hustler lines with a bunch of German dogs included, along with a few others.
 
HolyMoses said:
Interesting.

I was more wondering why he thought that NAHVDA played a roll in a dog wanting to retrieve or go in water.
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It's required that they do that's why. From the NA test on the dog has to WANT to swim. My pup is from NAVHDA and AKC lines (Most on dads side are VC/MH) and she was swiming from 8 weeks on. She is even starting to get a nice entry and she never swam like a dork. :)

I've heard of shorthairs that won't swim, I even knew of one. Once we got him playing in the water with us he turned on his water love. My arm will go dead before he stops wanting the bumper in the water. He still swims like a dork though.
 
carptom1 said:
That's ok. He would probably drop it half way back, or get distracted by a butterfly or something:D. Either way I wouldn't end up having to eat it.
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If his won't bring it to you mine will. :cheers:




Oh did you say butterfly, ya she might detour a bit.:laugh:
 
dsmtsi said:
It's required that they do that's why. From the NA test on the dog has to WANT to swim. My pup is from NAVHDA and AKC lines (Most on dads side are VC/MH) and she was swiming from 8 weeks on. She is even starting to get a nice entry and she never swam like a dork. :)

I've heard of shorthairs that won't swim, I even knew of one. Once we got him playing in the water with us he turned on his water love. My arm will go dead before he stops wanting the bumper in the water. He still swims like a dork though.
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what do you think played more of a role in your dog being the capable water and land retriever she is?

The navhda titles on your pedigree papers, or the fact that from 8 weeks on, you were working with her?

Do you feel that without the navhda titles in her pedigree that she would be where she is?

Not trying to be a smartass, just curious as to how important some feel the genetics are. Is it the numerous navhda titles in my pooches family tree that made him what he is? Don't know....but I sure hope that my dedication to working with him every single day played a little role?
 
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HolyMoses said:
what do you think played more of a role in your dog being the capable water and land retriever she is?

The navhda titles on your pedigree papers, or the fact that from 8 weeks on, you were working with her? On some things it's because I'm working with her, others like swiming and retrieving she has just done from day one. The titles don't make her do that but they show that she should.

Do you feel that without the navhda titles in her pedigree that she would be where she is? I feel that because the testing was done the breeder was able to breed a pup that has the natural ability to do what she does.

Not trying to be a smartass, just curious as to how important some feel the genetics are. I don't see it that way, it's a topic of disscusion. I think genetics are important. Most dogs that have hunting parents are going to be good hunters. You are taking the breeders word to some extent on what type of dog your getting. At least with NAVHDA I can look at test scores and see where there are area that could be trouble. In my case the stud died in 2009. I couldn't see it nor hunt with it, the testing gave me some answers on what type of dog it was.
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I have no doubt that me working with her will make her a much better dog. I've seen what a couple of hunting home shorhairs can do when worked with, I'm working with one now. He has a great nose and point but almost everything has been taught from there. If all you do is upland hunt he would be perfect except for the retrieving side. I duck, dove, and upland hunt so having a dog that can "do it all" matters.
 
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dsmtsi said:
I have no doubt that me working with her will make her a much better dog. I've seen what a couple of hunting home shorhairs can do when worked with, I'm working with one now. He has a great nose and point but almost everything has been taught from there. If all you do it upland hunt he would be perfect except for the retrieving side. I duck, dove, and upland hunt so have a dog that can "do it all" matters.
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:cheers:

I agree 100%, heck, one of the reasons I purchased my dog from where I did was to get the genetics I did. :thumbsup:

I just think there are people though who rely waaaaaay too much on what the papers say. Just feeling out what people here think.
 
It is the genetics that matter and knowing how to read what papers say. Knowing as many dogs on the paper as possible and what their qualities are and what they transfer over to their pups. The titles and testing are nice to prove that the dog does have the traits that the breeder says they have. So far less than 25% of my pups have been sold to people who can actually come here and see my dogs work. The titles are nice to show those buyers from out of the area that someone other than me agrees that they have exceptional qualities. I know we are getting pretty far off the original topic here, but I think it is going in a good direction. There is more to breeding dogs than just putting this dog or that dog or this breed and that breed together. Genetics are more complicated than that. Even when you think you know what you are going to get, sometimes you have surprises. In the case of mixing 2 breeds to get the "perfect dog" you never know which qualities the pups will possess.
 
HolyMoses said:
that is an interesting statement. Can you elaborate?

Last week I was with a couple buddies having a dog play date. A couple labs, my GSP, and a labradoodle (sp). My dog was without a doubt the most eager and lasted the longest in both the water and in retrieving in general. One of the guys made a comment at the beginning of the day when someone asked me "how does he like to retrieve?" the guy said "well, they ain't no lab, but I have heard that they will retrieve for a while". I chuckled knowing full well that my throwing arm has never outlasted his eagerness.

by the end of the day, he ate a little crow:p
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In the NAVHDA Tests all the dogs have to do water work or they will not pass the test and hopefully not bred. The utility tests are perhaps more water related than land. The GWPs are doing very well. Do they have the NATURAL love of water and retrieving that all Pudelpointers have? Probably not, but it sounds like yours does.
We do not see many Setters at NAVHDA, and I am guessing the swimming is the issue. Do see some English Pointers, but the successful ones I have seen were owned by very good trainers. Not trying to offend anyone as there are always exceptions to the rule, but the Vizla, Britannys, Weims certainly do not relish the water like the Munsterlander, Wirehair, Griffon etc.
 
I did not got to the end before I answered the question, but I beleive I answered most of the questions. Genetics plus training is how you get to a great dog. NAVHDA forces you to train for, if you will, the water and retrieving aspects, even if you just hunt upland. I cannot tell you the number of times the Puds were called up to do a water retrieve/search, in one case while five dogs, all of different breeds were standing around watching a rooster swim around in a very tight circle in a very small pond. Most Setters would not set foot in a slough with three inches of water in it to get a downed bird. I do not think they like the heavy cover--or their owners think they'll get their coats muddy. :D
PS TOM--If you think a Pudelpointer(or Wirehair for that matter) won't crash some heavy cover, get up to Ipswich this winter for the Wounded Warrior Hunt:thumbsup:unt
 
Uncle Buck said:
I did not got to the end before I answered the question, but I beleive I answered most of the questions. Genetics plus training is how you get to a great dog. NAVHDA forces you to train for, if you will, the water and retrieving aspects, even if you just hunt upland. I cannot tell you the number of times the Puds were called up to do a water retrieve/search, in one case while five dogs, all of different breeds were standing around watching a rooster swim around in a very tight circle in a very small pond. Most Setters would not set foot in a slough with three inches of water in it to get a downed bird. I do not think they like the heavy cover--or their owners think they'll get their coats muddy. :D
PS TOM--If you think a Pudelpointer(or Wirehair for that matter) won't crash some heavy cover, get up to Ipswich this winter for the Wounded Warrior Hunt:thumbsup:unt
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I agree with you about the setters, they are not a get dirty kind of dog. I hope to be able to come up this year. If I have some notice, I could probably make it work. I have nearly a 9 hr drive, so a couple days notice probably won't work. I would love to get around some dogs that are hard retrievers, I think it makes my dog better as he doesn't like to get beat out. I have never hunted with a Pudelpointer before, but they look like my kind of dog.
 
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