Best breed for finding cripples

Question was "best on down birds & cripples" which to me is almost entirely encompassed by marking a bird, getting to it, & finding it. Retrieving may have to be trained with some dogs & is the icing on the cake. A nicely finished retrieve is trained & is the ice cream on the same plate w/ the well-iced cake. An efficient, nicely finished retrieved comes with experience. But there are different approaches to marking & finding. Some take an orderly approach to it. Some, like me, allow a dog to mark a downed bird himself & immediately hit it like a ton of bricks. Or at least get to the drop site ASAP. Honestly, I've never seen a breed do this better & faster than a FBESS. And with wild birds in heavy cover, that's where finding & retrieving start. By getting there! Now, once a dog is in the drop zone, I believe any well-bred hunting breed will "find" equally well. A well-bred lab is probably most apt to then carry the bird to his owner (my definition of "retrieve") without much training. It's all about which aspects of the game are most important to you. For me, it's marking & getting there. I hunt a lot (relatively) in areas w/ birds, so my dogs get quite a lot of real-world experience (although not like a guide's dogs). The whole marking, getting there & finding thing improves immensely w/ experience, as dogs become more familiar with a wounded rooster's tricks. And then the retrieving thing. Whereas a lab may just do it, my dogs have to figure out they're tougher than a rooster & can carry it through 10" of snow & cattails. But it doesn't take long & once they learn things like that, they're 100% reliable. All well-bred hunting dogs have the tools to excel in this area. Training, hands-on experience, & personal preference will determine which adult dog is "best". The answer most people give (rightfully so) is, "My dog."
While I agree marking is of primary importance in the recovery of game the delivery part is just training. I also agree Field bred springers are damn good!
The reasons 10 of the last 11 National Field Champions have been labs is not because they hand a bird to the handler, its because they can mark the area of fall and recover the bird. Other things like biddability, temperament, and work ethic also play into the equation. Also the size of the Labs gene pool helps, field bred Goldens are exceptional retrievers there just isn't as many competing. Heck not that many years go Goldens cleaned up in the retriever competition world. They may do so again as responsible breeders are putting out some nice dogs.

While some believe marking can be improved through training its impossible to turn a poor marking dog into an all-star but any dog can be trained to retrieve in a passible fashion (if they can find the bird)!
I have ran my Labs in a few AKC Flushing Breed Hunt Tests (as well as many retriever HT"s and FT"s). Generally speaking our scores in the quartering portion only rate average compared to the Master level Springers, but we smoke the retrieving portion of the test earning us a ribbons.

From Page 27 of the AKC Field Trial Rules and Guidelines for Retrievers
"Accurate marking is of primary importance. A dog which marks the fall of a bird, uses the wind, follows a strong cripple, and will take direction from his handler is of great value."
The delivery or retrieve (by your definition) is a very small part of recovering downed and crippled birds in my opinion.
 
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Nose is what gets you crippled birds....not marking. I can see, I want a dog that can smell.....
 
While I agree marking is of primary importance in the recovery of game the delivery part is just training. I also agree Field bred springers are damn good!
The reasons 10 of the last 11 National Field Champions have been labs is not because they hand a bird to the handler, its because they can mark the area of fall and recover the bird. Other things like biddability, temperament, and work ethic also play into the equation. Also the size of the Labs gene pool helps, field bred Goldens are exceptional retrievers there just isn't as many competing. Heck not that many years go Goldens cleaned up in the retriever competition world and may do so again soon as responsible breeders are putting out some nice dogs.

While some believe marking can be improved through training its impossible to turn a poor marking dog into an all-star but any dog can be trained to retrieve in a passible fashion (if they can find the bird)!
I have ran my Labs in a few AKC Flushing Breed Hunt Tests (as well as many retriever HT"s and FT"s). Generally speaking our scores in the quartering portion only rate average compared to the Master level Springers, but we smoke the retrieving portion of the test earning us a ribbons.

From Page 27 of the AKC Field Trial Rules and Guidelines for Retrievers
"Accurate marking is of primary importance. A dog which marks the fall of a bird, uses the wind, follows a strong cripple, and will take direction from his handler is of great value."
The delivery or retrieve (by your definition) is a very small part of recovering downed and crippled birds in my opinion.
I know only enough about competitions to be dangerous w/ terminology. Maybe my use of the term "marking" was used pretty loosely above. For my purposes (& for lots of pheasant hunters) it means magically see a bird go down 35 yards away when the cattails you're in are 3 times as tall as you are & get to that dropped bird immediately.

I wholly agree the retrieve is trained & a small part of recovery. That's why I said it's trained (although some dogs don't need it to be passable) & just the icing on the cake. I also think aspects of HT/FT competitions only have so much to do with actual pheasant hunting (at least where & how I hunt), particularly the lightning fast quartering. Those dogs are thoroughbreds & insane. And sitting there waiting to be sent after a bird a long way away over mostly open territory. Does competition demonstrate biddability, temperament, work ethic, & the LIKLIHOOD that dog could be great on crippled roosters? Certainly!! But it only proves he can ace that particular competition.

My question for you guys who know way more about it than I do.....How much of a dog's possession of the tools required to do well in competitions (biddability, temperament, etc.) are a result of good breeding? 100%? And what percentage of well-bred pups have tools not just to compete, but to be quite competitive?
 
While I agree marking is of primary importance in the recovery of game the delivery part is just training. I also agree Field bred springers are damn good!
The reasons 10 of the last 11 National Field Champions have been labs is not because they hand a bird to the handler, its because they can mark the area of fall and recover the bird. Other things like biddability, temperament, and work ethic also play into the equation. Also the size of the Labs gene pool helps, field bred Goldens are exceptional retrievers there just isn't as many competing. Heck not that many years go Goldens cleaned up in the retriever competition world and may do so again soon as responsible breeders are putting out some nice dogs.

While some believe marking can be improved through training its impossible to turn a poor marking dog into an all-star but any dog can be trained to retrieve in a passible fashion (if they can find the bird)!
I have ran my Labs in a few AKC Flushing Breed Hunt Tests (as well as many retriever HT"s and FT"s). Generally speaking our scores in the quartering portion only rate average compared to the Master level Springers, but we smoke the retrieving portion of the test earning us a ribbons.

From Page 27 of the AKC Field Trial Rules and Guidelines for Retrievers
"Accurate marking is of primary importance. A dog which marks the fall of a bird, uses the wind, follows a strong cripple, and will take direction from his handler is of great value."
The delivery or retrieve (by your definition) is a very small part of recovering downed and crippled birds in my opinion.
...."responsible breeders putting out some nice dogs." Gatsby, can you elaborate on this remark? Do you mean breeders aren't producing good hunting stock?

Had an occasion to visit with a Golden Ret. breeder in WI a few weeks ago; she said there are fewer breeders now, hence the high price Apparently breeders are quitting the business due to the AKC demands on health certificates.
 
...."responsible breeders putting out some nice dogs." Gatsby, can you elaborate on this remark? Do you mean breeders aren't producing good hunting stock?

Had an occasion to visit with a Golden Ret. breeder in WI a few weeks ago; she said there are fewer breeders now, hence the high price Apparently breeders are quitting the business due to the AKC demands on health certificates.
Absolutely not. I think over the last couple decades the field bred golden breeders are doing fantastic. And for that matter I think a lot of the Show golden people are trying much harder to compromise between looks and field ability. The split is still pretty wide but it’s closer than Labs, and ESS’s. Chesapeake and shorthairs have no split.

I think the breeder may have been pulling your leg a little bit. The AKC has no requirements for health clearances. Parent clubs do have recommendations but they are not requirements. I test for more than the labrador retriever club recommends and the expense is about $800 (1 time expense). I’m sure for goldens it is similar or slightly more. Supply and demand always drives pricing and right now demand is outstripping supply.
 
I know only enough about competitions to be dangerous w/ terminology. Maybe my use of the term "marking" was used pretty loosely above. For my purposes (& for lots of pheasant hunters) it means magically see a bird go down 35 yards away when the cattails you're in are 3 times as tall as you are & get to that dropped bird immediately.

I wholly agree the retrieve is trained & a small part of recovery. That's why I said it's trained (although some dogs don't need it to be passable) & just the icing on the cake. I also think aspects of HT/FT competitions only have so much to do with actual pheasant hunting (at least where & how I hunt), particularly the lightning fast quartering. Those dogs are thoroughbreds & insane. And sitting there waiting to be sent after a bird a long way away over mostly open territory. Does competition demonstrate biddability, temperament, work ethic, & the LIKLIHOOD that dog could be great on crippled roosters? Certainly!! But it only proves he can ace that particular competition.

My question for you guys who know way more about it than I do.....How much of a dog's possession of the tools required to do well in competitions (biddability, temperament, etc.) are a result of good breeding? 100%? And what percentage of well-bred pups have tools not just to compete, but to be quite competitive?
You’ve asked the million dollar question nature versus nurture , who knows! I think breeding plays a huge part, and the skill of the trainer contributes massively. My feeling has always been if you use crap to make a taco you end up with a crappy taco. So I start with what I think are best ingredients, leaning heavily towards the bitch line. Great FT trial dogs require great breeding, great training, and a fair share of luck.
 
I have followed this thread with great interest. I do not have enough experience myself to weigh in on this. My 3 year old Viszla is in her 4th hunting season. She is hunting 20+ days each fall. Her retrieving ability is amazing. Most retrieves end up being blind retrieves because we spend a ton of time in cattail sloughs where it is near impossible for her to see the landing zone. I put her close and let her go to work.

Last year she started figuring the cripple "game" out. She struggled when we had cripples run into the cornfields or landed in the corn as we hunted the edges. Are standing cornfields typically a tough scenario for most dogs when the pheasants run? I also wonder if your dogs struggle with runners in cattails where there are a lot of birds creating lots of scent and distractions?
 
I don’t think one
I have followed this thread with great interest. I do not have enough experience myself to weigh in on this. My 3 year old Viszla is in her 4th hunting season. She is hunting 20+ days each fall. Her retrieving ability is amazing. Most retrieves end up being blind retrieves because we spend a ton of time in cattail sloughs where it is near impossible for her to see the landing zone. I put her close and let her go to work.

Last year she started figuring the cripple "game" out. She struggled when we had cripples run into the cornfields or landed in the corn as we hunted the edges. Are standing cornfields typically a tough scenario for most dogs when the pheasants run? I also wonder if your dogs struggle with runners in cattails where there are a lot of birds creating lots of scent and distractions?
Once the genes are there, the bird contacts make the dog. Yes standing corn is tough. It is hard to exactly pinpoint where they go down as it all looks the same. Once in there they move easily and with not much cover they have no reason to stop. Having a good nose is important but sometimes the marking ability is unreal. My older dog would amaze those that hunted with him. He always just knew where to go. When bird hunting I don’t want to tell him where to go, I want him to do it on his own. That 3 or 4 seconds are crucial on a stunned bird. I am not after a ribbon but I am trying to put a bird in the bag.
 
No dog is marking anything in standing corn. Get down on all 4s to the dogs level from their vantage point........ They aren't marking anything.....
 
No dog is marking anything in standing corn. Get down on all 4s to the dogs level from their vantage point........ They aren't marking anything.....
I think we all have got your point loud and clear that you think marking is a skill with minimal value for gun dogs, to each their own.
Obviously a dog cannot mark what it cannot see! But experienced dogs are able to accomplish amazing things that are not easily explainable.... Maybe by marking off the gun, projecting bird flight off of a quick glimpse, or just plain old fashioned good luck. I think they even use their ears when recovering cripples
I will take a dog that can mark and proceed immediately to the area of the fall and commence to hunt even if its just luck!
 
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Not all dogs mark the same, even within the breed obviously. I once read something about functional conformation, it was Mike Gould actually. Marking is way up on my list, along with some others.
 
I think we all have got your point loud and clear that you think marking is a skill with minimal value for gun dogs, to each their own.
Obviously a dog cannot mark what it cannot see! But experienced dogs are able to accomplish amazing things that are not easily explainable.... Maybe by marking off the gun, projecting bird flight off of a quick glimpse, or just plain old fashioned good luck.
I will take a dog that can mark and proceed immediately to the area of the fall and commence to hunt even if its just luck!
Agreed. They do amazing, unexplainable things, getting to birds I know they can't see go down. The only explanation that makes any sense is....They know roughly the original flight path, instantaneous time of the shot, & possibly the barrel angle (extrapolated backward from final position after a good follow-through), & do something like this in their head, all in a matter of about 0.1 second.
1850115.jpg
 
No dog is marking anything in standing corn. Get down on all 4s to the dogs level from their vantage point........ They aren't marking anything.....
I will also agree to disagree. Dogs use all of their senses in marking IMHO.

I recently posted a video of my yellow Lab making a retrieve in snow packed milo. That retrieve, that day, was about 70 yards over a slight crown in the field. The other shooter on the other side of the field dropped it. There was no way she could have seen the bird hit the ground. Yet she saw and tracked the arc of the fall and went right to the bird and brought it back.

Years ago, another yellow lab of mine had lost one eye due to a tumor. She and I were blocking at the end of a standing corn field. Corn was about 7 feet high. The walkers put one up about 40-50 yards out from us and dropped it. She went straight out and straight back bringing it in. No way she saw anything but the briefest arcing fall. This with one eye.

Ever trained a dog on black dummies on a pitch black night? Your assistant throwing the dummies so they land about 50 yards out? They "mark" by sound as well. What dogs can do....of any breed....is truly amazing.
 
I am not disputing that marking is not of value. But no dog is marking anything in standing corn........or for that matter most cattails sloughs.......The dog needs to get to area of the downed bird, either on its own, (some dogs seem to have a sense of where the bird went down) or by the handler getting to the area of the fall, getting the dog over to that area, and then letting the dog use its nose to track down the bird . Marking is nice, looks good in cow pasture length grass at a trial, with birds launching out of noisy zinger wingers to get the dogs attention, but it ain't hunting. Trials (retriever trials) the dogs are penalize for using their nose. They are judged on running straight lines to and from the area of the mark/fall, with as little handling as possible. This is how lab and retriever guys have bred the nose out of their dogs. They can mark.....but that is where it ends. A well bred experienced versatile dog will put more game in the bag due to the superior tracking attributes of the versatiles. It is just the way it is......
 
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Agreed. They do amazing, unexplainable things, getting to birds I know they can't see go down. The only explanation that makes any sense is....They know roughly the original flight path, instantaneous time of the shot, & possibly the barrel angle (extrapolated backward from final position after a good follow-through), & do something like this in their head, all in a matter of about 0.1 second.
View attachment 536
I love it!
 
I am not disputing that marking is not of value. But no dog is marking anything in standing corn........or for that matter most cattails sloughs.......The dog needs to get to area of the downed bird, either on its own, (some dogs seem to have a sense of where the bird went down) or by the handler getting to the area of the fall, getting the dog over to that area, and then letting the dog use its nose to track down the bird . Marking is nice, looks good in cow pasture length grass at a trial, with birds launching out of noisy zinger winger to get dogs attention, but it ain't hunting. Trials (retriever trials) the dogs are penalize for using their nose, they are judged on running straight lines to and from the mark/fall, with as little handling as possible. This how lab and retriever guys have bred the nose out of their dogs. They can mark.....but that is where it ends. A well bred experience versatile dog will put more game in the bag due to the superior tracking attributes of the versatiles. It is just the way it is......
Again! I get it, you need not keep repeating that marking is with out value!!
PS HRC uses wingers. AKC FT,s never use wingers (sometimes for flyers) AKC HT do use them rarely.
 
Last year she started figuring the cripple "game" out. She struggled when we had cripples run into the cornfields or landed in the corn as we hunted the edges. Are standing cornfields typically a tough scenario for most dogs when the pheasants run? I also wonder if your dogs struggle with runners in cattails where there are a lot of birds creating lots of scent and distractions?
I haven't noticed a problem in cattails or in areas where there may be other bird scent.
But any time a very lively bird drops (i.e.: 2 mostly good legs & not near dead) in an area with a head start, decent running surface (that's just about anything other than deep water or deep soft snow), & sparse cover....my experience has been that's about as tough as it gets for a dog. If birds don't have to stop running because of sustained injuries, or if there's just no place to hole up....they won't stop. And if they don't have weeds or something to brush up against as they run, I've deduced that they must leave very little scent. Can a dog track a bird under these circumstances? Yes. But it's going to be much more slowly than through thickish weeds where a bird leaves lots of scent. slow dog + fast pheasant = gone
 
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Wow such varied opinions on marking versus using the nose. Dogs will rely on their nose before their eyesight don't believe that, watch a puppy when you throw a dummy to far for them. They start to search with their nose even though you can see it with your eyes in the short grass. Trainers will teach a dog to look with their eyes to help the marking ability. That is why hunt tests are set up so your dog cannot use its nose until they get to the area of the bird. That forces them to use both senses, eyesight and then the nose. I guide some in the fall and I watched one of my dogs, in the tall corn mark a bird. She was taking a line following the path the bird took in flight. I watched this because the bird flew over me and was shot behind me. That dog had a perfect line and when the bird hit the ground she was almost under the bird. That is not nose, that is all sight. Marking escpecially on long retrieves is very important. That is what gets them to the area quickly. But then the nose becomes the important piece of the equation to determine which way the bird ran. I think another piece of the puzzle is drive. Some dogs won't give up and will relentlessly search for that bird. Other dogs are lazy and quit on a bird. That isn't breed specific that is all about the dogs personality.
 
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