Anyone know a good hunting dog training book?
- Thread starter Cody
- Start date
Well, I guess I better get rid of my dog. I trained him using those old, outdated Wolters and Marti methods and he has pointed literally thousands of birds and retrieved hundreds in the 7 years I have had him. But, since I used those old fashioned methods, not the new fangled stuff that sells more books to more people, I guess I better quit hunting with him until I get him up to speed on the new methods, you know since I am not a "serious" person.
JeremyS
New member
I wouldn't be offended and no one said those methods can't work. There are much easier and better methods now though. It's pretty well believed in the dog training community that Wolters was a much better author and promoter than dog trainer. I personally would recommend the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVD'S over about anything. If you want a book to use, go with Training With Mo. Jon Hann and Maurice Lindley are extremely well regarded dog trainers and their methods are proven. Another great thing about them is that you can still get input and help directly from them.
PheasantWhisperer
Member
I like the notion of having the "good enough dog". Im in the same boat. Dont get me wrong, I leave plenty of room for improvement, but train your dog to hunt how you hunt then let them go do there own thing and see if they teach you anything. It happens. I learned more from my first two dogs than they learned from me. And I mess up way more than my dogs do. I'm sure mine is thinking when they go on point, "Why are you going in to flush right there? The birds are on the other side of the tree, you're not going to get a shot dummy." Or when I took my brother-in-law hunting for his first quail hunt and he shot one at about 10 yards Im sure my dog was saying, "Which part of this bird do you want me to bring back!" Or when I miss I imagine my older vizsla saying "you not hungry? Dont feel like eating quail tonight?" As a baseball coach, dogs are much easier to train to hunt birds than it is teaching a kid how to hit an 85 mph fastball. Dogs listen better believe it or not!
westksbowhunter
Well-known member
All I can say is to take Wolters methods and take someone like Lardy and make an evaluation of the 2 programs side by side. Watch Wolters dvd and then Stawski's dvd and make an evaluation of the 2 programs. If you honestly think that Wolters offers a better training tool than Stawski I will pay for your Stawski Fowl Dawgs dvd.
Kismet
UPH Guru
Let's just say "different strokes for different folks" and accept that there will always be a plurality of opinions.
Good people may disagree without contention, and that is one of the reasons this Forum is the chosen site of so many quality outdoors-men.
I'm sure it will remain that way.
Good people may disagree without contention, and that is one of the reasons this Forum is the chosen site of so many quality outdoors-men.
I'm sure it will remain that way.
David0311
Relax a little--no one critized your dog or your methods--just pointed out that there are newer and better material and ideas out there--and that Wolters was a much more a writer and self promoter than ever a respected,knowledgable or successful trainer--
As for the comment on serious trainers I was speaking of retriever people--know nothing of pointing dogs folks--
Only question I have--is if you have had thousands of points --but only hundreds of retrieves!!! Where is the issue--shooting or retrieving???:cheers:
Relax a little--no one critized your dog or your methods--just pointed out that there are newer and better material and ideas out there--and that Wolters was a much more a writer and self promoter than ever a respected,knowledgable or successful trainer--As for the comment on serious trainers I was speaking of retriever people--know nothing of pointing dogs folks--
Only question I have--is if you have had thousands of points --but only hundreds of retrieves!!! Where is the issue--shooting or retrieving???
:cheers:westksbowhunter
Well-known member
As for the comment on serious trainers I was speaking of retriever people--know nothing of pointing dogs folks--
Only question I have--is if you have had thousands of points --but only hundreds of retrieves!!! Where is the issue--shooting or retrieving???
That's because Wolters didn't know how to force fetch a dog.
BRITTMAN
Well-known member
Good breeding. Patience. Obedience. Patience. Consistency (as best you can). Patience. Field Experience. Patience.
Read, watch, listen to your dog ... every dog is different even within breeds.
Read, watch, listen to trainers ... adapt to your temperment, tools, and land available to you.
Read, watch, listen to your dog ... every dog is different even within breeds.
Read, watch, listen to trainers ... adapt to your temperment, tools, and land available to you.
As for the comment on serious trainers I was speaking of retriever people--know nothing of pointing dogs folks--
Only question I have--is if you have had thousands of points --but only hundreds of retrieves!!! Where is the issue--shooting or retrieving???
I was being sarcastic....I realize people have differing opinions...but I have not called their chosen methods a joke.
And I appreciate your jab, and the humor intended...but I would like to answer.
Training, training, training....
With a pointing dog, the key, in my estimation, to having a good time in the field with your dog is having him work for you, hunt with you, and stay rock solid on point. I haven't had to spend much time the last couple years, but on all my dogs I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours in the field with well over a thousand pigeons working on pointing and steady to flush. These were homing pigeons, so I rarely shot one...
Including time actually hunting, points on hens, points on prairie chickens, and sharptails out of season, that equates to thousands of points.
An average season for me is 30 or more days of actual, in the field, wild bird hunting. I figure I take 0-3 or sometimes 4 birds per day...say an average of 1.5 birds per day, something like that....over a season that is around 40-50 birds. I have had this dog 7 years....equals somewhere around 250-300 birds shot and retrieved.....thus hundreds of retrieves.
David0311
I was being sarcastic....I realize people have differing opinions...but I have not called their chosen methods a joke.
And I appreciate your jab, and the humor intended...but I would like to answer.
Training, training, training....
With a pointing dog, the key, in my estimation, to having a good time in the field with your dog is having him work for you, hunt with you, and stay rock solid on point. I haven't had to spend much time the last couple years, but on all my dogs I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours in the field with well over a thousand pigeons working on pointing and steady to flush. These were homing pigeons, so I rarely shot one...
Including time actually hunting, points on hens, points on prairie chickens, and sharptails out of season, that equates to thousands of points.
An average season for me is 30 or more days of actual, in the field, wild bird hunting. I figure I take 0-3 or sometimes 4 birds per day...say an average of 1.5 birds per day, something like that....over a season that is around 40-50 birds. I have had this dog 7 years....equals somewhere around 250-300 birds shot and retrieved.....thus hundreds of retrieves.[/QUOT
My comment on shots versus retrieve was meant in good humor
As I said in my post--know very little to not hing about pointing dog training--
Your explanation makes perfect sense to me--thank you. :cheers:
This is an interesting thread to follow, emotions seem to run rich. It has left me with a feeling that there are a wide range of folks looking at this who are separated by age and experience. To better explain I will disclose myself-
I feel like at the age of 50 and having been into dogs and birds since the age of 12, I am 'on the fence' for ability and expertise. I grew up reading articles from the fore front experts in all manners of outdoor sports- Ted Trueblood, Jim Carmichael, Charlie Waterman, Patrick McManus to name a few.
We got our first lab in the late 70's, my dad bought a training book by James Lamb Free "Training your Labrador Retriever"...it is a classic (IMHO) but interestingly enough talks about not expecting your lab to even complete a simple mark retrieve until over the age of one. In contrast Richard Wolters contended (back then as well) that a lab could be trained approx. on day 49 or once it new it's name.
So who was right? Well that would of been based on how your dog turned out after using what training doctrine you used. Myself? I used a combo of both of their techniques in the mid 80's to train my very own first lab. He got to the level of doing blind doubles by the age of one, would sit/stay next to a store door until I came out, walk heel without a leash in the middle of a dog show at my local fair grounds (that turned some heads) and slept at the bottom of my bed every night. His plateau of accomplishment was effected by me leaving for the army, few years later he died of cancer.
Anywho, here is my point- since then I continue to have dogs...both pointers and flushers, I continue to subscribed to GunDog and a few other magazines and peruse the point and flush articles of the 'current' experts. I say 'current' cause at this point I have read articles from a long range of experts that are current, retired and dead...
READ all of the articles you can find, think about them and how they can apply with the dog you CURRENTLY have and decide if they work for you. I cannot say that one method by one person works for me. Wolters I think was at the forefront of a different method to train dogs...not better but different...just like Jambs Lamb Free. Also...cannot remember who commented about Wolters not knowing about force fetching (blame it on vodka tonics) but yes... in the book "Game Dog" where he addresses teaching a lab how to be a traditional retriever and a upland flushing dog to boot, he talks about force fetching. I myself am trepid about force fetch, no not cause I am a pansy but cause have not done it yet to date...reason is that up until recently have owned labs/spaniels who can't keep shit (and other stuff) out of their mouth. Have a griffon now as well and retrieving is touch/go so may have to resort to the force technique...not a big fan but will do what has to be done.
IMHO...
I feel like at the age of 50 and having been into dogs and birds since the age of 12, I am 'on the fence' for ability and expertise. I grew up reading articles from the fore front experts in all manners of outdoor sports- Ted Trueblood, Jim Carmichael, Charlie Waterman, Patrick McManus to name a few.
We got our first lab in the late 70's, my dad bought a training book by James Lamb Free "Training your Labrador Retriever"...it is a classic (IMHO) but interestingly enough talks about not expecting your lab to even complete a simple mark retrieve until over the age of one. In contrast Richard Wolters contended (back then as well) that a lab could be trained approx. on day 49 or once it new it's name.
So who was right? Well that would of been based on how your dog turned out after using what training doctrine you used. Myself? I used a combo of both of their techniques in the mid 80's to train my very own first lab. He got to the level of doing blind doubles by the age of one, would sit/stay next to a store door until I came out, walk heel without a leash in the middle of a dog show at my local fair grounds (that turned some heads) and slept at the bottom of my bed every night. His plateau of accomplishment was effected by me leaving for the army, few years later he died of cancer.
Anywho, here is my point- since then I continue to have dogs...both pointers and flushers, I continue to subscribed to GunDog and a few other magazines and peruse the point and flush articles of the 'current' experts. I say 'current' cause at this point I have read articles from a long range of experts that are current, retired and dead...
READ all of the articles you can find, think about them and how they can apply with the dog you CURRENTLY have and decide if they work for you. I cannot say that one method by one person works for me. Wolters I think was at the forefront of a different method to train dogs...not better but different...just like Jambs Lamb Free. Also...cannot remember who commented about Wolters not knowing about force fetching (blame it on vodka tonics) but yes... in the book "Game Dog" where he addresses teaching a lab how to be a traditional retriever and a upland flushing dog to boot, he talks about force fetching. I myself am trepid about force fetch, no not cause I am a pansy but cause have not done it yet to date...reason is that up until recently have owned labs/spaniels who can't keep shit (and other stuff) out of their mouth. Have a griffon now as well and retrieving is touch/go so may have to resort to the force technique...not a big fan but will do what has to be done.
IMHO...
mnaj_springer
New member
mlf, you make some great points, and I too (although younger than you), am constantly learning and willing to hear the advice and input of others. Knowledge is power so why ever deny receiving it, even if it means you only learn that you don't like something.
But as to your comment on not FF your dogs... My dogs didn't really need FF. They were naturals and would deliver to hand most of the time. But I did it for the other benefits. They learn to better handle pressure and how to respond to pressure. For example, I took my young pointer through FF in February, and she's responded by not only being reliable with the retrieve but also she's steadied to shot and fall with minimal pressure. Plus, that "f-word" means they will never balk at a retrieve now.
But again, you make excellent points, and I'm just putting another perspective out there.
But as to your comment on not FF your dogs... My dogs didn't really need FF. They were naturals and would deliver to hand most of the time. But I did it for the other benefits. They learn to better handle pressure and how to respond to pressure. For example, I took my young pointer through FF in February, and she's responded by not only being reliable with the retrieve but also she's steadied to shot and fall with minimal pressure. Plus, that "f-word" means they will never balk at a retrieve now.
But again, you make excellent points, and I'm just putting another perspective out there.
Gatzby
Well-known member
Yes!!!!!
FF is about so much more than picking up something and delivering to hand. FF gives a dog the ability to understand and react to pressure in all aspects of training.
mnaj_springer
New member
mlf, you'll get a lot of varied answers. I use the method described by James Spencer in "Hup!"
ahh...you are probably right...that was a loaded question. Spencer...I like his style will look his method up...thanks
mnaj_springer
New member
The technique Spencer describes is not his own, but it worked for me. It's a "gentler" FF method, and relies on the dog showing you he's ready for the next step (my interpretation). With my spaniel it took 2 1/2 weeks. With my pointer it took 6 weeks, with frequent "reminders" of the rules in new situations. I chose it because I understood it and was comfortable with it.