12 0r 20
- Thread starter torch
- Start date
Really does come down to the Shooter, if a great shot like me & moellermd a 20ga is all that is needed. :10sign: Have seen more bad shooters with a 12 then a 20. Sorry no real stats. :cheers:
moellermd, your assesment is correct that the fault lies with the hunter, and not with the 20GA. The 20 is NOT inferior in the hands of a SKILLED marksman. Please don't take my comments the wrong way. I've run into many hunters not willing to admit that they are not quite as good as they think, and yes, some of those chaps carry 12's.
I think the bottom line may be this:
For the beginner, or average marksman with a shotgun, many of us believe the use of a 12 over a 20 will likely help those not-as-skilled shooters do better in the field on late-season birds. In a perfect world we could all use a 410 and never cripple or lose any birds. But, that's simply not reality.
My goal (or hope) is that every one that reads these posts or participates in opinions does the best they can in the field, and cleanly harvest the birds to their best ability. If you shoot a 20 during any season well, then by all means, have at it. I just think that for average hunters, the 12 might give them an edge, even if it is a small edge.
I think the bottom line may be this:
For the beginner, or average marksman with a shotgun, many of us believe the use of a 12 over a 20 will likely help those not-as-skilled shooters do better in the field on late-season birds. In a perfect world we could all use a 410 and never cripple or lose any birds. But, that's simply not reality.
My goal (or hope) is that every one that reads these posts or participates in opinions does the best they can in the field, and cleanly harvest the birds to their best ability. If you shoot a 20 during any season well, then by all means, have at it. I just think that for average hunters, the 12 might give them an edge, even if it is a small edge.
Nimrod
Member
Nice, I was just trying to give a serious answer the question "what's the difference between 1 1/4 oz of shot from a 12 ga. vs. a 20 ga. 3 inch mag. I couldn't care less what gun anybody chooses to shoot, but if you don't know wtf you're talking about, you shouldn't be quite so rude to someone who does.
What you refer to as my "blatant attempt at tailgate science" is actually the sort of secret knowledge that is hidden away in "books" for example:
"In theory and fact the three-inch 20 gauge cartridge is the worst abortion ever foisted upon the gunning world. The longer the shot column in relation to bore diameter, the less efficient the performance for several reasons. First, the longer column places more pellets in contact with the barrel wall, which scrapes them out of round and turns them into useless flyers. The longer and heavier the shot charge, the more it resists thrust from the powder gases, in part because of increased friction and in part simply because a heavier object is harder to move. This increases chamber pressure and also means more crushed pellets at the bottom of the column: these string out behind the main swarm, rapidly shedding velocity and contributing nothing to pattern efficiency.
Michael McIntosh, Shotguns and Shooting pg. 202.
or how about this:
"With some loads, shot can string out sufficiently at distant crossing angles to cripple not only the bird being shot at but one several yards behind."
Bob Brister, Shotgunning The Art and Science pg. 275.
You can sit down now.
Hey Thor, you are WAY too practical (and funny) and logical to be making those remarks about recoil. If you are spot-on, and really having a good day, 3 shells fired (even 3") shouldn't hurt anyone's shoulder, even in an ultralight 12GA O/U. But, firing 50-100 3-dram 1 1/8 oz target loads in that same gun will get you flinching in short order.
On the other hand, if you are repeating bad habits like lifting head off stock to "peek", jerking the trigger, not leading the birds, stopping your swing etc, the results will cause a shoulder to soften.
Thank goodness they make 7lb gas-operated auto's!
On the other hand, if you are repeating bad habits like lifting head off stock to "peek", jerking the trigger, not leading the birds, stopping your swing etc, the results will cause a shoulder to soften.
Thank goodness they make 7lb gas-operated auto's!
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moellermd
Super Moderator
Nimrod
The problem with Bristols work is that it is rather old. A lot of things have changed with shot hardness, wads ect. If you do the math the difference between a 7 ft shot string and a 12 foot shoot string is that a teal would fly six inches before the entire shot string hit them. Either way the bird is dead. There is no practical effect to shot string. The effect of gravity has just as much having almost twice the shot string length.
CRP it would be correct that a 12 gauge with a heavy shot load would give you a slight range advantage over a 20 ga. But at that point I would not be taking the shot anyway.
The problem with Bristols work is that it is rather old. A lot of things have changed with shot hardness, wads ect. If you do the math the difference between a 7 ft shot string and a 12 foot shoot string is that a teal would fly six inches before the entire shot string hit them. Either way the bird is dead. There is no practical effect to shot string. The effect of gravity has just as much having almost twice the shot string length.
CRP it would be correct that a 12 gauge with a heavy shot load would give you a slight range advantage over a 20 ga. But at that point I would not be taking the shot anyway.
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moellermd
Super Moderator
No I am not that great of a shot. The funny thing is I shoot a 20 ga on roosters and 12 ga on dove, go figure.
Calisdad
New member
Geeze Nimrod.
No need to get yer feathers ruffled. If you're so worried about out of round shot perhaps you should alert Federal as the are putting 40% oblong shot in their 'Black Cloud' shotshells. Any rudeness perceived was unintended.
Instead of insisting inexperienced hunters us larger gauge weapons perhaps the insistence should be more time on the practice range.
And as far as someone missing 11 of 12 shots, I don't think a punt gun would have made any difference.
No need to get yer feathers ruffled. If you're so worried about out of round shot perhaps you should alert Federal as the are putting 40% oblong shot in their 'Black Cloud' shotshells. Any rudeness perceived was unintended.
Instead of insisting inexperienced hunters us larger gauge weapons perhaps the insistence should be more time on the practice range.
And as far as someone missing 11 of 12 shots, I don't think a punt gun would have made any difference.
Nimrod
Member
So why do the best gunners in the world pay extra money for hard shot, longer forcing cones & overbored barrels all of which are intended to reduce shot deformation for the sole purpose of lessening shot string?
Even though Bristol's book was written in 1975, the laws of physics haven't changed. Round shot still maintains its velocity better than deformed shot and velocity is directly related to penetration. I don't deny that a 20 ga. 3 in. load of today may be better than those of 30 yrs. ago for the reasons you mentioned (harder shot, better wad design) but the same innovations have also improved the 12 ga. load, keeping it firmly ahead in efficiency.
I agree that if you shoot your birds on the rise over a staunch pointing dog, there is no difference between the performance of a 20 or a 12. The premium loads only come into play at long range. The best load in the world isn't going to compensate for putting the gun in the wrong place.
That being said, even though I don't push the range beyond ethical distances on my 1st shot on wild birds, I've anchored many pricked birds at long range that would otherwise have suffered a long, slow death.
moellermd
Super Moderator
Lengthening forcing cones in a modern shotgun would bring another interesting discussion.
I am not saying that shot string does not exists. It does, but it is much less than it was is Bristers day. But more importantly it simply does not matter enough to have a practical effect.
The math says it all. With a 6 foot longer shot string, a bird would fly 6 inches from the time the first pellet hit it to the time the last one did. It is still dead.
The other thing that it is important to realize is that different loads in the same gauge will have vastly different shot strings. Tests between 12 ga #4 lead and #4 steel have shown differences of up to 6 feet. So if you are really concerned about shot string length and think it matters you should get a high speed camera I test all the loads you can and find the one with the shortest shot string.
I bet no one on this forum knows what there current shot string length is in their pet load.
I am not saying that shot string does not exists. It does, but it is much less than it was is Bristers day. But more importantly it simply does not matter enough to have a practical effect.
The math says it all. With a 6 foot longer shot string, a bird would fly 6 inches from the time the first pellet hit it to the time the last one did. It is still dead.
The other thing that it is important to realize is that different loads in the same gauge will have vastly different shot strings. Tests between 12 ga #4 lead and #4 steel have shown differences of up to 6 feet. So if you are really concerned about shot string length and think it matters you should get a high speed camera I test all the loads you can and find the one with the shortest shot string.
I bet no one on this forum knows what there current shot string length is in their pet load.
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I have personally gone completely across the gamut of 12 to 20 back to 12. When I started out I shot a 12ga. In my twenties on into my late 40's I shot only 20 ga. Picked my shots on bigger birds, like pheasants and ducks, ( when we used lead). Now, I'm not as quick on the rise, and my eye sight is not as sharp as it once was, so I have gravitated back to the 12 again. I started my daughters out with 20's, now because of killing power with non-lead loads, transitioning to 12's. It's the killing power that is the deciding factor to me. Lot's of cripples with steel or steel substitutes, possibly due to inexperience with the loads and their ballistic coefficients, and peculiararities, in the 20ga. For me those go away with the superior bore diameter and dynamics of the 12, with non-toxics. With lead, the newer lead loads 12 or 20 are pure lethal, with the nickled shot, and superior wads, have made chokes almost obsolete. With any load, I believe that there is simply no debate as to the superioity of a 12 over a 20. Advantage to a twenty was ever only related to weight. New alloy 12's don't weigh anymore than my old 20's. If you don't like the recoil, stuff your 12 with lighter loads, and you will still most likely equal 20 ga. in pattern efficiency, and killing power. Even so I have a slew of 20's. For pheasants, I prefer the knock'em dead 12. I don't enjoy the long-shot, hit multiple times in the butt, chase across the corn field quartermile dash for me or the dogs anymore. Much less the one you spend an hour looking for and can't find. Resource to valuable to risk the waste.
Beginning to wonder about shot speed, does faster mean all shot arrives at same instant, when a slow speed might give a better pattern when swing on a bird?
Always here about testing pattern, but a swinging pattern might be significantly different than a stationary target shot. Like the idea of discussing of a beer, but need one sober guy to do the testing for us. :cheers::cheers::cheers:
Always here about testing pattern, but a swinging pattern might be significantly different than a stationary target shot. Like the idea of discussing of a beer, but need one sober guy to do the testing for us. :cheers::cheers::cheers:
BritChaser
Well-known member
One Gun? 12 Ga.
If you're like me, basically a one gun hunter (with a backup), I would get a 12 ga., the most versatile. You can always open the chokes and run lighter loads and shot on lighter game like quail.
If you're like me, basically a one gun hunter (with a backup), I would get a 12 ga., the most versatile. You can always open the chokes and run lighter loads and shot on lighter game like quail.
bobeyerite
New member
Wednesday night I was watching the 4H youth group practice for the state you shooting finals. There are both boys and girls on the teams. Some of them were shooting 20 gauge from the 16 yard line. They were shooting 7/8 ounce loads and you should have seen those young shooters smoke them clays. They were smoking them better at times than the 12 gauges were...........Bob
It's true that a stationary pattern board does not tell the whole story about a pattern. On the pattern board, you go look after all of the pellets are on paper, even though they don't all arrive at the same time (shot string). However, it does give a good indication of where the bulk of your pattern is hitting the target, if there are really big holes in the pattern, or whether certain chokes pattern better than others . Although plain steel shot sucks (especially sub-gauges) it does have shorter shot strings, if that is of importance.
It's unfortunate that the non-toxic stuff is so costly, because it is much more lethal than plain steel. My experience with Heavi-Shot pretty much duplicates the performance of lead.
It's unfortunate that the non-toxic stuff is so costly, because it is much more lethal than plain steel. My experience with Heavi-Shot pretty much duplicates the performance of lead.
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