12 0r 20

moellermd, have you noticed that the ammo mfgs. are catering to the women and kids by offering 12GA loads with light 7/8 oz loads at modest (1100-1150) velocity? While these loads are not only good for training purposes, they aquaint the young/new shooters the versatility a 12. Since most young/new shooters can't initially afford a brace of all gauges, learning to shoot one gun (that fits) is beneficial. As marksmanship skills develop they can experiment with sub-gauges.

Regarding eating the birds, I like pheasants more than any game and don't shoot them up. Also, my dogs are as good as any, but I would rather have them retrieve dead birds than chase after runners all day. My dad was the finest shot I have ever been around, and his favorite gun was a Model 12 20GA. But, pheasants were thick as flies back when he was hunting.

As far as 20 vs. 12, go to a clays tournament and see how many competitors are using a 20 in the main event. None. I shoot skeet and clays in the off-season to maintain marksmanship skills. I hope the posters using a 20GA for late-season birds do the same. Otherwise, I don't believe that hunters only in the field a few days each year with a 20 will have the same success.
 
CRP said:
moellermd, have you noticed that the ammo mfgs. are catering to the women and kids by offering 12GA loads with light 7/8 oz loads at modest (1100-1150) velocity? While these loads are not only good for training purposes, they aquaint the young/new shooters the versatility a 12. Since most young/new shooters can't initially afford a brace of all gauges, learning to shoot one gun (that fits) is beneficial. As marksmanship skills develop they can experiment with sub-gauges.
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So it is OK to use a 7/8 oz 12 ga load but not a 1 oz 20 ga load? :confused:

Does anyone make a 12 ga youth shotgun?

It would be nice to see some science or rational behind these claims.
 
Will challenge anyone to a wild bird hunt, shoot a 20 gauge and never have been outshot by anyone else have hunted in same group. The gun being light is the biggest factor for me. Easier to carry and get up and in proper positon quicker.
 
delahunter834 said:
What is the differce between 20ga 3in and 12ga 2 3/4 in?
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A 1 ¼� oz load shot from a 12 ga. is much more efficient than the same load shot from a 20 ga. 3 inch mag. The shot string will be shorter, less shot will be deformed, & it can be propelled at higher velocities.
 
Nimrod said:
A 1 ¼� oz load shot from a 12 ga. is much more efficient than the same load shot from a 20 ga. 3 inch mag. The shot string will be shorter, less shot will be deformed, & it can be propelled at higher velocities.
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I do not know if "much more efficient" is the appropriate term. The long shot string and square pattern does not effect your pattern that much. At 40 yards it moves the center some where around 4 inches.
 
moellermd said:
I do not know if "much more efficient" is the appropriate term. The long shot string and square pattern does not effect your pattern that much. At 40 yards it moves the center some where around 4 inches.
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It simply takes more force to cram 1 ¼ oz of shot down a 20 ga. barrel than a 12 ga. This additional force flattens a high % of the pellets upon ignition. These deformed pellets donâ??t fly as fast or true as the round pellets at the front of the load. Itâ??s possible to have a shell that looks great on a pattern board but doesnâ??t kill efficiently because the shot string is so long that not enough pellets arrive on a crossing target at the same time. (probably doesnâ??t matter much on a straight away)

The higher velocity you try to achieve, the worse the stringing becomes. Thatâ??s why 3 in. magnums are slower than a 2 ¾â?� shell from the same manufacturer. You are paying more to punch your shoulder harder, & deliver a slower pellet to the bird. Itâ??s pure marketing.
 
No doubt the pattern is effected some but not that much to matter for all practical purposes. A 10mph wind will move your pattern as much as a "long shot string will." Heck gravity moves the center of the pattern 3 inches at 40 yards. I never compensate for gravity at different ranges. I am sure not going to buy a gun based on shot string.

It is also important to realize that all of the research on shot string was done before the ear of modern powders, wads and chokes. Most modern research debunks the idea that shot string matters.
 
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I like 12guage..... I like BIG BOOM:thumbsup:
 
Nimrod said:
It simply takes more force to cram 1 ¼ oz of shot down a 20 ga. barrel than a 12 ga. This additional force flattens a high % of the pellets upon ignition. These deformed pellets donâ??t fly as fast or true as the round pellets at the front of the load. Itâ??s possible to have a shell that looks great on a pattern board but doesnâ??t kill efficiently because the shot string is so long that not enough pellets arrive on a crossing target at the same time. (probably doesnâ??t matter much on a straight away)

The higher velocity you try to achieve, the worse the stringing becomes. Thatâ??s why 3 in. magnums are slower than a 2 ¾â?� shell from the same manufacturer. You are paying more to punch your shoulder harder, & deliver a slower pellet to the bird. Itâ??s pure marketing.
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No offense but did you just make that up? That's the most blatant attempt at tailgate science I've ever heard. Again, if there are studies to back up what you said I'll sit down, but really. Wow.

As far as using a 12ga at a clays event, sure but I don't eat clay pie. I've never had too little gun with a 20ga in the field but I've sure had too much gun with a 12ga.

Shoot the gun that fits you best. If you down size your gun you don't have to go deaf, or deafen your dogs, doing it.
 
Wow...I started quit a debate. I was thinking I would find an answer to my question but it seems there is no clear answer. From what I can tell I will be happy with a 12 and will have the versatility I am looking for. Good for everything from field to trap....While some may think a 20 is good enough, I am no expert and do not shoot enough to be one...I think I will stick with the 12...Only regret may be I could save a pound or so in weight carrying it in the field. I am 31 so weight should not be a problem for a few years.
 
Deacon said:
Will challenge anyone to a wild bird hunt, shoot a 20 gauge and never have been outshot by anyone else have hunted in same group. The gun being light is the biggest factor for me. Easier to carry and get up and in proper positon quicker.
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do you come to Kansas- would you allow me to walk at your shoulder as we step in on a point
 
If you enjoy carrying a certain gun and in a certain gauge and are satisfied with your abilities with it. That's all that counts. I just said that if you only have only one gun, a 12ga will most likely do the best all around job. On that note, I haven't carried a 12ga other then during early goose season this year( I carried a 10ga too). I have been hunting all week with mostly one of three 20ga O/U's I have and one 16ga model 12 Winchester pump. I have a prized 12ga Weatherby Athena O/U I bought specifically for Pheasant hunting. Nothing better then a late season hunt with full boat 13/8oz(2.75) or 15/8oz(3") lead shot shells in a 12ga. Really snockers them far flushers. I love the gun and truly enjoy carrying it. If I feel well enough, it will be in my hands. If I'm having one of my tough days. I'll most likely be carrying one of my 20ga O/U's.

Don't argue guys, just enjoy what gives you pride carrying. That's good enough for me.

Chuck, who shot his limit of Ruff Grouse yesterday and had a real education by the same game bird today. It's all fun but I have to admit, I like the full game bag days. Having a Beam and Coke, waiting for supper. Then to the shower/ I STINK! LOL
 
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moellermd, the 7/8 oz 12GA load is a TRAINING round. I never said it was a hunting load. My point was that not all 12 loads recoil hard for young/new shooters learning the ropes, and maybe the only gun they have on hand is a 12. As far as using a 20, did you miss earlier threads where I mentioned I have a Citori 20 and 16 and like shooting both a lot, but understand there are situations where I feel a 12 is a better choice.

Calisdad, have you actually held a decible meter close to either a 20 or 12 being fired and recorded the calculations? Both gauges will damage your hearing if not protected, and any difference is negligble. I'm living proof of that.

It is too bad that these X vs Y comparisons always seem to turn into peeing contests. Like someone said earlier, use whatever gun/gauge works best for you. However, if a newbie asks a fair question, lets all try not to flame any posters offering their experience or insight. Like politics and choice of cars, we don't have to agree on everything. Didn't someone say once; "Variety is the spice of life"?
 
CRP I am not trying to flame anyone. There is nothing wrong with a friendly discussion about shotgun gauges. I just want the conversation to be one that is based on fact. If people want to advance the idea that a 20 ga is not good medicine for late season birds they should have some type of facts to back up that statement. There are some good reasons to choose a 12 ga, but not because of velocity, shot string, or the 20 ga inability to kill "wild late season birds."
 
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If I owned good video equip, I could have filmed many hunts over years of hunting where shooters with 20GA guns crippled more late-season birds than they ever killed. I used to take customers hunting from a company I worked with that were notorious for bringing 20's in late Nov or Dec. Although these guy's all claimed to be expert shots, they turned out to be a bad joke.

In fact, the last group I got stuck with was a father/son combo from WA state. Although I suggested otherwise, the father insisted on using his 20 on our first shelterbelt hunted. He had birds all around him and managed to cripple one bird out of 12 shots fired. Because he refused to listen to logic, he didn't put one bird in the truck all that day, but did cripple many more. Thankfully, I don't work for that company anymore, and don't have to put up with that nonsense.

In 2008 while hunting in ND, two high-school age boys from MN were hunting with their dad on the same ground. Although these boys were full-grown, they were carrying Rem 870 youth 20's. They had a bad habit of breaking wings and then ground-pounding the cripples with their 20's.

Now moellermd, I won't give names/addresses of those hunters mentioned being completely ineffective in the use of a 20 on late-season pheasants. You wanted facts, and all of these events are facts as witnessed by me. Feel free to believe or not.

I should have started writing a book (and video taping) a long time ago portraying all of the shenanigans, goofups, and downright crazy things observed during a span of some 36 years of hunting pheasants.
 
CRP I believe that you have witness people maiming birds with a 20 ga just like I have witnessed wounded birds with a 12 ga. The question is, is the gun being a 20 ga to blame or the shooter. I just want to know why the 20 ga is supposedly inferior and no one can tell me. Velocities are adequate, shot count is similar to 12 ga shells, shot string is an old theory dis proven and written about by many writers.
 
Thor say - me like big boom from 12 ga. thunderstick!

But seriously, how many shots do people take that recoil matters much (in the field)? I don't think I've ever squeezed the trigger more than 12-15 times on a good day. I rarely get a lot of shooting (hunting public and ditches). I do get sore shooting clays 50 to 100 shots at a time. If 20 ga. is good for pheasants because of the lighter recoil, there must be a lot of shooting going on. I'm not implying people shoot (or miss) too much. I've just never had that hunting experience that requires more than a handful of shells in the vest. Does anyone have regular hunting experiences where you are shooting so much that the recoil differences between 12 and 20 ga. matter that much? Maybe my 6-8 days of pheasant hunting per year isn't a fair comparison to people that hunt much more.
 
Thor, its easy to shoot 2 or 3 boxes a day dove hunting or even a box quail hunting. The recoil from a 12ga will bruise you when get out hunting 3-4 days a week. My 20ga choked full in the top barrel will reach out and snatch a late season rooster right out of the air stone dead.
 
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