When do we start the push for change?

No I agree, however they could be persuaded to put a small portion, maybe 2.5% back into some type of habitat through a gov't funded program. Until that happens or we see 16 million acres of CRP enrolled, don't plan on having an abundance of upland birds in Kansas. If crop prices are up, pheasant number will be down. You say "can't expect farmers to give up their livelihood". At the same time I don't expect them to plant crops to the edge of the road. They plant all the way to the road, then wonder why the county can't maintain roads after a rain. The only place water can go is straight to the road. Some of you just want to blame the the KDWP for bird numbers. All they can control is the regulations. Its the landowners that can impact bird numbers. The KDWP owns about 60,000 acres in Kansas, private landowners control 98%. If private landowners contribute, we will have birds. That's the bottom line, like it or not.
I think you and I see things very similarly.

What's sad is the issues a lot of us see - many do not - the problem is the issues we see will take many years if not decades to become apparent to the masses. In KS and I'm guessing TX, OK, NM and likely parts of SD and E Colorado (Dont know anything east or west of there and quite frankly no offense to anyone else I dont care - from your comments your habitat is already permanently ruined due to urbanization, loss of grasslands to trees in E Ks, MO, and the Eastern US - those places are a lost cause) -- anyways the point I'm getting at is soil health and water - Farmers are already sucking the Ogallala dry from TX to NE - the shallower parts already have run out of Water - (NM, TX, OK, Parts of KS) -- as this continues to happen it will create further problems - couple that with the constant application of fertilizers and poisons sold by the big ag companies we are heading for a natural disaster that will not be apparent until it's too late - like trying to turn a gargantuan container ship when you spotted an ice berg 100 yards out - you're not going to miss it and disaster will happen. I dont know what will be the tipping point - there's a few that get it - but very few do and I think very few actually care. Sadly this disaster will likely continue on it's course during our lifetimes and my childrens lifetimes and take many years after I'm long and turned to dust again to correct itself.

The farmers will likely be upset at my point of view - I dont care - they are entitled to theirs - I dont think they are bad people - just suckered into the lies the big ag companies tell them. These big conglomerates are doing the same things Tyson did to Chicken farmers - (read the book "The Meat Racket" for a good lesson).

Another rambling -- I finally bought 72 acres to go with my 6 I already had our house on next to where I live -mix of Ag, woods, creek bottom - I plan on building a house on part of it - had the whole property logged for walnuts/oaks and have completed some excavation with my tracked skid loader to level out where I want the home on the farmland - Also had a perk test completed for our septic system we need to put in. Here's my non farmer observation -- the soil is good dirt - stuff really grows in it - good black dirt deposited from the glaciers back in the day - Around my house no chemicals have been used for years - lots of leaf litter from trees (I've removed about 50-60 trees though around our home) but the soil is almost sponge like -- It is fricking full of nightcrawlers and earth worms, moles and likely teaming with bacteria -- I never have to water anything and the grass and weeds are super healthy -- You dig down and unless you hit clay the water drains after a time due to the natural tillering of the worms and root systems etc.

Now go out to the farm field - We filled each of the holes and hit hard pan pretty darn close to the surface as for many years it's been no tilled and sprayed with every version of weed and insect killer I can imagine -- completely devoid of life except henbit and some sort of invasive shit grass in the spring - nothing lives very log to establish a root system -- we had not had rain in 2 plus months I believe which is unusual for my area and those holes we dug for the perk test on our septic system didnt drain worth a crap -- I have to put in max amount of septic lines --- had the farming been done more responsibly and working with mother nature with better soil health or even if there was native grass there I'd imagine the perk would have been night/day different with healthy soil - I hypothesize the soil would have drained so much better --- I look forward to the day most of it is out of production or the new farmer that will take over can implement his practices to stop fighting mother nature so much. The income from the crop is so inconsequential I dont really care if it's farmed again.
 
Nope we will have a record number on NR deer applications for 2022. And a record number on deer hunters if transferrable tags are passed. Last year the price for commissioner tags averaged $30,000 and one rumored for $42,000. You think $6 gas will stop them? They are sinking $10,000 a year into deer leases. Many are now buying their own land here. It won't stop me from going to Iowa.
my guess is there are a lot less guys sinking big money for leases. take a look at your 401K and grocery/gas bills!
the deer crowd NR's are a bunch of idiots, KDWP loves these guys, but bird hunters will be sorely missed, as there was a lot more in numbers. see ya in Iowa.
 
my guess is there are a lot less guys sinking big money for leases. take a look at your 401K and grocery/gas bills!
the deer crowd NR's are a bunch of idiots, KDWP loves these guys, but bird hunters will be sorely missed, as there was a lot more in numbers. see ya in Iowa.
Not really. If we loose 5,000 NR upland hunters that is easily made up by offering by offering only 100 more NR deer tags. That is how they think. An upland hunter comes here for 3 or 4 days. A deer hunter comes for 2 weeks.
 
Not really. If we loose 5,000 NR upland hunters that is easily made up by offering by offering only 100 more NR deer tags. That is how they think. An upland hunter comes here for 3 or 4 days. A deer hunter comes for 2 weeks.
i think you are upside down here. most deer hunters come for 5 days, if that. nobody pisses away 2 weeks hunting deer.
I I know, as I bird hunt during deer season (every year) and don't see many deer hunters. And season is only 8 days in Dec.
as a bird hunter (NR) if the birds are up, i make at least 3 3-5 day trips each season.
let's see how well those NR deer tags sell. of course KDWP will inflate the numbers to attract more hunters, as they do with bird forecasts.
 
Nope they bring in their campers, they rent houses, they buy houses, etc. I know several that come for 3 weeks. Some come multiple times. Maybe a week in Sept. then for a couple of weeks during the rut.
 
i think you are upside down here. most deer hunters come for 5 days, if that. nobody pisses away 2 weeks hunting deer.
I I know, as I bird hunt during deer season (every year) and don't see many deer hunters. And season is only 8 days in Dec.
as a bird hunter (NR) if the birds are up, i make at least 3 3-5 day trips each season.
let's see how well those NR deer tags sell. of course KDWP will inflate the numbers to attract more hunters, as they do with bird forecasts.
Rifle seasons 12 days and imagine a lot stay as long as it takes
 
Rifle seasons 12 days and imagine a lot stay as long as it takes
Yep and then the bowhunters. They might come several times for at least a week. Takes time and commitment to bow hunt. You can't even get started in 5 days. Takes a couple to hang stands. Bowhunters come in the summer several times planting food plots, check trail cams, etc.
 
In our area this deer bubble is going to burst faster than I originally thought. There isn't any ground left in our southeast part of the state that is hunted/leased now. The big bucks can't make it when that happens and those 5k deer hunts and high dollar leases all the sudden don't look so good. Land prices have doubled if not more around here the last few years because of antlers and I really hope some of these guys eat a big you know what sandwich when all they have is 120" deer if they're lucky and they can't pay for the land by farming it or cattle because what they paid will never pencil out. My hope anyways 🤞.
 
Not really. If we loose 5,000 NR upland hunters that is easily made up by offering by offering only 100 more NR deer tags. That is how they think. An upland hunter comes here for 3 or 4 days. A deer hunter comes for 2 weeks.
I agree you are correct in your conclusion the dipshits that run the Wildlife commission and our state House/Senate see the # of tags as the revenue generator - but IMO and Id have to dig to find the economic studies - I'd wager the 5000 bird hunters have FAR MORE of an economic impact than the deer hunters do - simply the #'s - spending money at gas stations, motels, restaurants etc -- the tax money from those expenditures is worth far more than selling more deer tags...but our elected officials are TOO DAMN stupid to see that.
 
I agree the drought maps are phony and the emergency haying is ridiculous. But they can't manage land they don't own. Now they can control what properties are enrolled in the program but have no authority to manage someone else's land. The WIHA program is no different today than it was 25 years ago. There have always been non huntable properties. Where have you guys been?
There has always been a useless spots but maybe 2 of 10 were bad, now only 2 in 10 are huntable. I tried to find some old wiha contracts but seems like years ago any rented crop ground had strips left in the fields which I assumed was a stipulation. Maybe I'm wrong? Does anyone else recall that?
 
I agree you are correct in your conclusion the dipshits that run the Wildlife commission and our state House/Senate see the # of tags as the revenue generator - but IMO and Id have to dig to find the economic studies - I'd wager the 5000 bird hunters have FAR MORE of an economic impact than the deer hunters do - simply the #'s - spending money at gas stations, motels, restaurants etc -- the tax money from those expenditures is worth far more than selling more deer tags...but our elected officials are TOO DAMN stupid to see that.
160 acres leases for about $2000 minimum. Then all the corn they buy for their feeders, the feeders themselves, trail cameras, tree stands, etc. They come and buy archery equipment, bows, arrows, scent products, blinds, tower blinds, etc. They buy houses, land, etc. 160 acres of terrific deer habitat just sold for $435,000 15 miles down the road from me. A retired fellow from Nebraska bought it to strictly bow hunt. They are not buying 160 acres to manage for pheasants, NR's are buying land for deer hunting. It isn't even close. Topeka is cashing in big time on deer hunting in Kansas. If pheasant hunters contributed that much you can bet they would cater to them. They know where the money is.
Here are some local listings here, and this is just for a few counties here. It is a mega jackpot state wide. Just check out Whitetail Properties. https://www.nextechclassifieds.com/search/land/?
 
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There has always been a useless spots but maybe 2 of 10 were bad, now only 2 in 10 are huntable. I tried to find some old wiha contracts but seems like years ago any rented crop ground had strips left in the fields which I assumed was a stipulation. Maybe I'm wrong? Does anyone else recall that?
There are some bad ones for sure. With the CRP expiring and emergency haying. If they are able to do emergency haying then they should not be able to enroll that acreage.
 
160 acres leases for about $2000 minimum. Then all the corn they buy for their feeders, the feeders themselves, trail cameras, tree stands, etc. They come and buy archery equipment, bows, arrows, scent products, blinds, tower blinds, etc. They buy houses, land, etc. 160 acres of terrific deer habitat just sold for $435,000 15 miles down the road from me. A retired fellow from Nebraska bought it to strictly bow hunt. They are not buying 160 acres to manage for pheasants, NR's are buying land for deer hunting. It isn't even close. Topeka is cashing in big time on deer hunting in Kansas. If pheasant hunters contributed that much you can bet they would cater to them. They know where the money is.
Here are some local listings here, and this is just for a few counties here. It is a mega jackpot state wide. Just check out Whitetail Properties. https://www.nextechclassifieds.com/search/land/?
It's sickening, a quarter section in our area just sold just over $4400/ac to a deer group from Alabama. It really screws a lot of things up no one thinks about ie cattle leases, crop leases, taxes....when idiots pay that kind of money to deer hunt. No farmer/rancher has a chance if this keeps up. I lease property next to this Alabama bunch and you can bet I'll fill every tag I can and let anyone else that wants to hunt next to them and fill tags in the coming years. My deer management is taking a hard 180 to eradication.
 
Yep and then the bowhunters. They might come several times for at least a week. Takes time and commitment to bow hunt. You can't even get started in 5 days. Takes a couple to hang stands. Bowhunters come in the summer several times planting food plots, check trail cams, etc.
very few non resident bow hunters
 
very few non resident bow hunters
I dunno. I think there's a lot more than you think and growing as these crossbows keep gaining popularity. Now their wives and kids come too because they can get one with a crossbow at no telling what range in the right hands.
 
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very few non resident bow hunters
Bud you are crazy! $10,784,610 for just the NR deer tags through the draw. Another $2,851,524 for the hunting license to go with the deer tag. Roughly 60,000 NR hunting licenses sold each year. Take out the 24,000 licenses sold to deer hunters that leaves 36,000 licenses to share between upland, waterfowl, rabbit, dove, ect. for $4,212,000. No comparison between upland hunter revenue and deer hunting revenue. These deer hunters like Jeff Foxworthy pay millions in property tax to the state of Kansas each year. Outfitters bring in millions.
 
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i think you are upside down here. most deer hunters come for 5 days, if that. nobody pisses away 2 weeks hunting deer.
I I know, as I bird hunt during deer season (every year) and don't see many deer hunters. And season is only 8 days in Dec.
as a bird hunter (NR) if the birds are up, i make at least 3 3-5 day trips each season.
let's see how well those NR deer tags sell. of course KDWP will inflate the numbers to attract more hunters, as they do with bird forecasts.
Bow hunters, especially, will stay here for weeks at a time. They’re thick as flies on shit here in southeast Kansas.
 
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