westksbowhunter
Well-known member
In my town of 300 very few use chemicals on the yard. I am sure in the larger cities, but I wasn't referring to them.
When do we start the push for change?
- Thread starter GetTothePoint
- Start date
GetTothePoint
Well-known member
I wouldn't be surprised and these are the same folks that want all organic produce and no antibiotics used in the production of the meat they eat, if the even eat it, but they run to the doctor for a ZPack every time they get a sniffle.
GetTothePoint
Well-known member
Back to a buffer program and crunching numbers, it takes up just over 9.5 ac out of a section to leave a 20 ft grass edge around entire thing. With that said the kdwp could go around 66 sections of ground adding 4 miles of 20 ft wide grass each section just by taking the money from 1 fully leased section of poor WIHA ground and leasing those same amount of acres in a buffer program. Seems like a lot of added habitat spread out over long ranges to me!
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Lab Chaser
New member
With your fuzzy math you're assuming kdwp pays cash rental rate for WIHA acres because nobody is taking ground out of production for less than that. That's $40-70/ac in most of the pheasant range. Then they'd have to pay that rate annually to keep it in habitat. Their budget is a drop in the bucket compared to what's available through federal programs. The state does have money available to establish habitat but no financial incentive to keep it in habitat. The feds on the other hand have several programs which help with both establishment and pay an annual rate. Unfortunately poor administrative decisions in the federal govt have led to poor payment rates for these programs. People are getting offered less for CRP now than when they first enrolled it 15 years ago. There is a bottom line to be met for landowners and all of the programs in the world don't matter if it doesn't pay the bills.
GetTothePoint
Well-known member
Clarified my post referring to dropping paying for a section of poor walk-in. Not getting a section out of production. And I agree it will have to be incentivised and that's why I think convincing farmers to give up a few feet of good producing ground on field edges rather than big pieces would be somewhere to start. Maybe kdwp and nrcs will have to combine some funds together to make it work.
westksbowhunter
Well-known member
The Kansas Legislature isn't going to do squat. They can pay land owners a cheap price to lease their ground to sway NR hunters to this state by claiming we have lots of public land to hunt. All while not putting out any man power or expense to maintain land and manage land. They can't even afford to maintain the state parks. Boat ramps need to be addressed at many state parks but nothing gets done. This is all wishful thinking. They are going to continue with what they are doing. It brings in lots of money for them with little effort. There is no conservation in their philosophy. It all went out the window in 1995 when they opened NR deer hunting. One of the worst decisions ever for resident hunters.
GetTothePoint
Well-known member
How bad do you think it will have to get before they do something? Or do they never make improvements and they'll live off deer tags until that peters out too? Their license sales are taking hits last few years to a point I'd think someone has to be noticing. I notice you say you've been driving to another state to bird hunt and I've also hunted more days out of state last 2 yrs than I have in KS and I'd have to think we aren't alone.
I dont know how old you are but the writing has been on the wall for a couple decades at least - people have been giving these arguments to the KDWP since the mid 00's -- the problem has been that the power left the Biologists hands decades ago at this point to manage the deer herd - it started a slippery slope after that. I've been to a couple meetings and the people representing the KDWP (I believe Lloyd Fox was one) could have given 2 sh * ts what anyone suggested and what they were seeing - even the well thought out arguments from the more intelligent of the folks that showed up. These were in Wichita when I lived there and well attended.
Look up who's on the KDWP commission and who's been appointed Sec of KDWP since Hayden - it's all political and all old white men -- half the people on the commission are just token political favors - there's a couple token white women - the rest older white men - not one minority - I'd bet you'd have to go back and struggle to ever find a minority on the commission - then you have folks from the eastern part of the state that have likely never hunted in their life -- on the current commission during the covid era I popped in for a couple meetings - based on the comments made by a couple of the commissioners I can guarantee they have likely never spent a day in their life doing any real hunting - especially on WIHA or public lands.
Wont get much accomplished with the worthless people we have in charge -- a guy on this board got pretty active then disappeared and did some digging on how the Pittman Robertson funds are used and how some states appear to game the system (See my post in the Oklahoma forum here) - I'm being blunt - but we have some people in charge and in upper executive positions of our state govt and that of the KDWP that really could care less if anything improves.
You call people out then you just get a target on your own back.
I have a 7 yo and a 9 month old son - my 7yo I've been slowly indoctrinating to hunting - when we get into big game more seriously (my favorite is mule deer) - I will likely plan out of state trips -- it's about pointless to plan it here - yeah yeah - say I'm complaining - but I'm just old enough I remember when it was common to see mule deer N of Salina, decent #s of mulies in Pratt County and even edging into Reno, throw a dart at KS - minus Kansas City Metro or Wichita metro and you'd get into more upland birds than you knew what to do with and the WIHA (most of it) was actually quality - there's more to blame than the states poor management - you have the wildlife pimps and tv shows that showed up and took advantage -- it's the age old argument - yeah you all need to make money but what happens when you literally depleted most of the hunting opportunities and made it extremely difficult to introduce more people to the sport -- you'll slowly kill it off -- and the ones responsible are the present generation of greedy old white men and their children taking over now. I think our only hope and what it will take is an environmental disaster (like the dust bowl) for any changes to be made to how land is managed -- no one really cares - it's the same way our government keeps using debt and expanding it - just pass it off to the next generation -- for all the current one cares they'll be dead and in the ground so they wont have to deal with it.
I do not see a future of good hunting here for upland birds - white tail deer who cares - you can shoot those anywhere - Mule Deer are going away - turkeys are most anywhere. I dont have the energy nor time to waste to try to make things better until my family gets older - until then we will go elsewhere and deal with what we have - when my kids are a bit older I'm guessing the state of hunting I like to do will be so piss poor I'll be even more motivated to move to the desert SW unless they run out of water which is very likely the way things are going.
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GetTothePoint
Well-known member
Now I did take a few years off due to my old dog passing, getting married, kid, house etc around 2012-2016 or so and when I got back into it again and bought dogs again it wasn't really until then that I remember going "what the hell is going on?" I started bird hunting in the early 1990s and started getting to shoot in the mid 90s and always remembered good hunting, I lived in Manhattan during college in the early 2000s and could leave class midday and drive 30 min outside of town and come home by dark with few roosters and handful of quail. It wasn't until the last 4-5 years that I've really noticed it I guess.
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westksbowhunter
Well-known member
They are interested in NR license sales.
Well you're just a bit younger than me - but yes - like a frog in a pot of water set to boil - sneaking up on a lot of people.
Kansascutter
Member
The NR licenses are growing 3:1. Residents are hanging it up because they know, see, and experience the truth. These are the people that live here and pay taxes year around. Their own biologist (Bidrowski) pointed this out this year. I’ve asked about getting a copy of this report and have seen nothing but smoke. Stuart Shrag, KDWP Public Lands Director, gave a presentation to the Commissioners that was fraught w/fuzzy math. Shrag claimed that NR numbers were not near “historical highs”. Shrags “historical highs” were numbers pulled from the 60s thru the 90s and were a one year anomaly he used to compare to last years usage of public grounds pulled from Isportsman. Covid anamoly was also thrown into his presentation. Isportsman only measures a fraction of ground available for public use so it’s numbers are skewed from the get go. Bidrowski’s report was a multi year study that showed the truth as it showed multi year trends, not one year anomalies. It was conveniently left out in Shrag’s presentation to the commissioners. In the interest of transparency, this was all relating to waterfowlers. One doesn’t have to be a rocket scientist to see this has also happened with upland.
Anyone out there more than once a year can see what a farce the WIHA program has turned into. It’s mostly marginal to poor ground that gets pounded to death. One only has to peruse a few FB groups to see how poor the hunting has been, how marginal the WIHA is, and how the NRs are calling out KDWP for their yearly dose of “blowing sunshine up everyone’s kiester” about bird numbers. Every upland bird report for the last 10 or so years has “fair to good w/pockets of birds.” The residents know the truth and the NRs are finally figuring it out. Social media is a powerful tool.
To your question, Yes, they are absolutely living off of the deer game and pulling NR dollars off of the hope of “pockets of birds.” I’m NOT anti NR. I do think there should be some measures put into place in those regards, mainly waterfowl and the continued harvest of a mule deer herd thats got serious problems with little recognition or solutions of that by KDWP. The real travesty is the continued hoodwinking of the NRs with the continued PR campaign of “1 million public acres, long seasons, and liberal bag limits”, I’m sure you’ve all seen the commercials. There is a smidge of hope as 3 commissioners seem to get it, Troy Sporer, Lauren Sills, and Aaron Ryder. The rest need to go. Now. Write your letters and make your calls. All of the commissioners contact info is on the KDWP website. It’s past time to acknowledge the writing on the wall.
Chestle
Well-known member
I hunted KS every year from '71 to '05. In 2006 I went to SD for the first time and haven't really hunted KS since, with the exception of a very few short and fruitless expeditions. There were years I hunted SD for 30-40 days total. Some of those years in SD were just beyond incredible for bird numbers.
I was going to do some more KS this year after SD but there have been time consuming medical issues in the family. The reports I read here, on various FB groups and hear from friends are insufficiently motivating to get me out in KS. There's still time though; I may go yet.
Or....I may just get back to SD for a 5 day.
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Chestle
Well-known member
Since nothing changed since we all talked about this last year, I think I'll just cut/paste the email I sent last year and send it to all of them again. I don't expect any change in 2022 either.
It wont sadly. Our state government is worthless. I live in Topeka and cant stand any of them. One of the elected state officials doesnt live far away from me and owns a hunting preserve - he's been at the forefront of some bad bills for further pimping out wildlife. I didnt vote for him last election but alas he had an R in front of him so he won -- but barely.
I need to keep my mouth shut but it's hard - I'd like to get on the wildlife commission but you have to hobnob in the snake den and I cant do it.
cheesy
Well-known member
And more importantly, they are interested in NR deer permit sales, $442 a pop. Why bother managing for pheasant success...
Chestle
Well-known member
Then they should just charge for small game like SD does.
I would guess there are more NR upland hunters than NR deer hunters. KS 2021 NR deer stats are out. Applicatons 29,880 Quota 22, 026 and all sold out. So 22k deer hunters.
I could only find 2018 numbers for NR hunting licenses sold - 62,603. If you take away ~ 20k deer hunters buying a license, that means ~40K NR hunters came for other quarry.
If they charged NRs for a general license as SD does, they'd make a lot more money over all. They might even begin to see upland as an important source of revenue.
I would guess there are more NR upland hunters than NR deer hunters. KS 2021 NR deer stats are out. Applicatons 29,880 Quota 22, 026 and all sold out. So 22k deer hunters.
I could only find 2018 numbers for NR hunting licenses sold - 62,603. If you take away ~ 20k deer hunters buying a license, that means ~40K NR hunters came for other quarry.
If they charged NRs for a general license as SD does, they'd make a lot more money over all. They might even begin to see upland as an important source of revenue.
cheesy
Well-known member
Nonresident figures only:
20k deer hunters bring in ($442+97.5) $11.8M.
40k other hunters bring in ($97.50) $3.9M
Half the hunters bring the state almost exactly 3X the revenue of all the small game, bird, ducks, etc. Not that $4M is small potatoes, but the $12M makes the politicians and department heads salivate.
Admittedly, this is all oversimplification, and I'm biased by being a nonresident, that grew up as a native, but has a lifetime license so still considered a resident, and I've shot more deer in the last few years than I have pheasants, all the while I'd rather be bird hunting than deer hunting....
20k deer hunters bring in ($442+97.5) $11.8M.
40k other hunters bring in ($97.50) $3.9M
Half the hunters bring the state almost exactly 3X the revenue of all the small game, bird, ducks, etc. Not that $4M is small potatoes, but the $12M makes the politicians and department heads salivate.
Admittedly, this is all oversimplification, and I'm biased by being a nonresident, that grew up as a native, but has a lifetime license so still considered a resident, and I've shot more deer in the last few years than I have pheasants, all the while I'd rather be bird hunting than deer hunting....
westksbowhunter
Well-known member
There are Non Resident Landowner tags as well. Then the illegal tags that NR buy as a resident. What do you mean by charging NR's for a general license? In 2020 Kansas sold 38,857 resident hunting licenses while selling 55,596 non resident licenses. 28,935 residents bought a combo hunt and fish license and 4207 Non Residents bought a combo license.
Note: Numbers indicate total number of people who purchased each license
License ... 2018 ... 2019 ... 2020
Resident combo ... 34,989 ... 26,773 ... 28,935
Resident fishing ... 125,949 ... 116,129 ... 159,813
Resident hunting ... 48,563 ... 42,367 ... 38,857
Nonresident combo ... 2,711 ... 3,089 ... 4,207
Nonresident fishing ... 11,828 ... 11,018 ... 16,167
Nonresident hunting ... 68,170 ... 64,943 ... 55,596
Nonresident Jr. hunting ... 2,677 ... 2,524 ... 2,364
CSA hunting license ... 10,530 ... 9,732 ... 8,607
Trout permit ... 11,475 ... 10,813 ... 13,186
Three-pole permit ... 17,747 ... 16,565 ... 20,306
Tournament Bass Pass ... 883 ... 966 ... 809
Resident apprentice ... 1,402 ... 1,453 ... 2,371
Nonresident apprentice ... 628 ... 858 ... 1,000
Senior resident combo ... 669 ... 526 ... 653
Senior resident fishing ... 5,119 ... 4,629 ... 5,912
Senior resident hunting ... 912 ... 697 ... 724
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westksbowhunter
Well-known member
Wasn't that long ago that NR's made up a very small portion of hunting licenses sold. Kansas has catered to the NR and they are putting the squeeze on resident hunters. But even NR licenses sold is trending down. These states are killing conservation for revenue. The future of hunting is fading.