Would it be ethical to have my Setter Bred?

KsHusker

Member
First bird dog was a brittany, then when I was 20 purchased an English Setter. Am on my 2nd Setter so far.


1st Setter I had bred twice. Once when the birds were in somewhat of a downturn in the middle 2000's and I had problems selling the dogs...my parents had bred litters of pups from time to time so I'd been around it growing up.

She had 6 pups, (5 f, 1 m) placed 3 in homes and 3F went to Flint Oak http://www.flintoak.com/

They had a lot of Tamoka line in them (the female I owned had heritage from Troy's kennel - PrairieDrifter) and the stud was a son or grandson of CH True Citizen

I called Flint Oak about 5 or 6 years after they had bought the pups - they still had one female which they stated was a great dog, one was gone out of the kennel before the present dog manager started working there and the other was more of a one owner dog and was adopted by one of the employees but was told she was a great dog.

Bred her a 2nd time - she only had 3 pups (2 died at birth - not sure what went wrong - think it was a tough labor for her) and only one lived - which I kept and have now. 2nd stud didnt have a lot of close field trialing relatives, however I was familiar with other relatives in his kennel and this guy had a GREAT personality and boy could he run like much like his mother.


Anyways My present dog is a GREAT pet, was slow to develop (by my standards) but naturally backed and naturally retrieved. Great house dog and personality as well. It just took me a while to get her "boldness" to come out.

The one negative - she inherited the trait of false pregnancies from her mother. I'm unsure if any of the other females from the 1st litter did the same - never had the feedback.

This is my only health concern in breeding her....I really dont know if this is a trait I should be concerned about - however she is getting old enough I either need to attempt to breed her next heat cycle or have her spayed and plan on purchasing a pup from somewhere else. Would really like to keep the line going.

She ranges quite a bit which I like. She has a soft personality but I think more of it might have to do with being an only pup in her litter. Her being soft forced me to be a more patient and better trainer.


I've hardly ever had to use an Ecollar throughout her life...just been a dream to work with in that regard. I really dont like hard headed dogs.




Is having false pregnancies a health trait to be concerned about? If this helps in giving feedback....her mother (my 1st dog) was so sensitive to being around other pups she would produce milk and take care of them as they were here own....So for example, my parents have had Mini Schnauzers around for quite a # of years and have bred them from time to time - My 1st Setter was 1.5 years old - the schnauzer had a litter and really didnt know how to take care of them and frankly some of them were going to die. This setter produced milk within 2-3 days, and spent more time in the whelping box than the Schnauzer mother did and nursed them far more than the Schnauzer ever did as well. She did this for a second litter that came 2-3 years later as well. She just had a strong mothering instinct.


I about took her to a stud dog last spring however backed out since my son was only 9 mos old at the time. Now that we have the parenting thing down a little better ourselves feel more comfortable handling a pup now.

She's going to be 6 or 7 this March so it's do or die time the next heat cycle which is around the corner if she stays on her near yearly schedule.
 

Crossing shot

New member
Why do you want puppies? You want a pup, friends want dogs, etc

I kept a runt out of my last litter. Only regret was not breeding her and keeping my kennel going.

If I was to breed today I would want two or three buyers lined up and be prepared to train dogs that might not be sold as puppies.
 

KsHusker

Member
Why do you want puppies? You want a pup, friends want dogs, etc

I kept a runt out of my last litter. Only regret was not breeding her and keeping my kennel going.

If I was to breed today I would want two or three buyers lined up and be prepared to train dogs that might not be sold as puppies.

I wont have a problem getting rid of the dogs and am not in it for the money. I want another dog and would prefer it come from my female.


I'd work out a deal with the owner of the stud they can sell the dogs I dont keep and keep the money or at the very least I get to keep a bit of the sales money for my vet/feed expenses.

I'd rather have $400-600 rapped up in a litter I raised on my own and kept one out of than paying it to someone else. My dog has what I want. False pregnancy tendency is my only trepidation.
 

Crossing shot

New member
I rescued a few month old britt 12 years ago. She had a false pregnancy not long after that. Never had another after spaying. Would a spayed dog have a false pregnancy?

That dog is 13 and having her best season. She only stays home if we hunted harder than usual the day before.
 

KsHusker

Member
I rescued a few month old britt 12 years ago. She had a false pregnancy not long after that. Never had another after spaying. Would a spayed dog have a false pregnancy?

That dog is 13 and having her best season. She only stays home if we hunted harder than usual the day before.

No they dont. Once they are spayed it goes away. For some reason my first dog and now her daughter both have (had) them after most every heat cycle. They exacerbated the problem by nursing on themselves, which is quite annoying to watch/listen to when they sit beside your desk.
 

SetterNut

New member
Here is what my dog strategy is:

I pick the best litters from the best breeders breeding dogs I like.
That makes it much easier to pick a great dog. I would also say that most breeder have a better idea of how to breed a great dog than I do.

I would consider breeding Indy, but before I do, I would talk to Indy's breeder and get his advice.

Basically I put my money on a knowledgeable breeder producing great pups over me producing a great pup...... and finding homes for the rest of the litter :cheers:
 

goldenboy

Active member
The simple answer is no! Let me explain, have you had her hips, elbows, eyes, heart certified? If not no reputable stud owner is going to breed to your female. You mention you want to keep your line going. What line? You have a dog you like that is far from a line of proven dogs. If you want to start your own line or begin to create some specific traits in a line, find what you are looking for from a breeder and buy a good, healthy, sound puppy. From there do your training and health certifications. After two years when she is what you want in a hunting dog/house pet then look to go down the breeding path. I don't mean to come across as harsh but I have been breeding dogs for a while now and the job isn't done once the puppies are sold. I provide health guarantees for 28 months to my buyers. That is a part of raising a line of dogs as well. Just my 2c and some food for thought before you go and get your dog bred.
 

KsHusker

Member
The simple answer is no! Let me explain, have you had her hips, elbows, eyes, heart certified? If not no reputable stud owner is going to breed to your female. You mention you want to keep your line going. What line? You have a dog you like that is far from a line of proven dogs. If you want to start your own line or begin to create some specific traits in a line, find what you are looking for from a breeder and buy a good, healthy, sound puppy. From there do your training and health certifications. After two years when she is what you want in a hunting dog/house pet then look to go down the breeding path. I don't mean to come across as harsh but I have been breeding dogs for a while now and the job isn't done once the puppies are sold. I provide health guarantees for 28 months to my buyers. That is a part of raising a line of dogs as well. Just my 2c and some food for thought before you go and get your dog bred.

Most breeders seem to have the aloof view you do. Not sure what qualifies one to breed dogs over another individual. The question was not whether or not I'm qualified to have my animal bred, as only I can answer that question if I have the capabilities to take care of the animals properly and insure the betterment of the breed by choosing the correct stud.


I probably should have simplified my question. Do you think having a trait for false pregnancies is enough to stop breeding the dog. The question really is that simple. Thats what I'm torn over. Not whether or not I'm qualified to have my female have a litter in my house. I'm leaning towards having her bred, was just hoping there might be some good discussion over this trait and personal experience with it, not just go buy a dog from a breeder.


No one gets into breeding dogs to make a living at it - if they do you are probably borderline running a puppy mill. I also had no problems lining up a stud her last heat cycle just didnt go through with it. With her cycle due end of Feb early March I've got to start thinking about it.


My dog does not have bad hips, eyes or a heart. I dont need a vet to tell me that. My dogs live in the house with the family and ride on the front seat in my truck unless they're dirty. I think most people who think like me would rather have a dog come from an individual who has the dog as part of their family as opposed to being relegated to a kennel and never allowed house or family time. If I am going to sell a pup those are the owners they are being sold to.

If you're a breeder with more than 4 or 5 dogs, having all of them in the house and involved with family is simply not going to happen. Not enough time in the day.


As for line - I mean traits she has/inherited from her mother etc. She can hunt like crazy when the time is right and sits beside my desk the other 9 months of the year while tolerating my 20 mo old son laying on her, rough housing and pulling her tail....doing early toddler things all the while loving him to death as she loves me. Those are the traits IMO that are up in the air getting the dog from a "reputable" breeder as you say as again, most have so many dogs they dont have time to spend with all of them so they're not even going to have a good handle on the dogs complete personality. I know mine, know what she lacks and what to look for in a stud dog. However the Stud dog needs to be a family dog or there will be no pairing going on.

If I wanted a tool to keep outside in the pen there's plenty of folks I can buy one from. :) :cheers:
 
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goldenboy

Active member
Like I said Husker, I am not looking to offend. My dogs are house dogs as well. I breed two different dogs so I have one litter per year. Not a puppy mill. I know the personalities of each of my puppies because they are raised in the house and handled every day. It sounds much like the way you like to raise pups. I have had stud dogs that had no problem with hips or anything, hunted hard etc. But when they went to get certified the dog failed some of the tests. Now it might not be a problem for you or your dog, but I would hate to sell a puppy to another person, no matter what the price, have them bond with that puppy, and then find out the puppy has an inherited trait that will shorten their life span and cause the owner to loose a dog to early in life. I am looking out for the customer more than myself.

I had to give a deposit back to a buyer because the puppy I had sold to them had a heart murmur during a vet check. Better to catch things on the front end before you repeat those traits.

In answer to your question of whether or not a bitch passes those traits along I would check with a vet that knows setters. Best of luck to you.
 

KsHusker

Member
I have seen a dog with false pregnancies still have issues after being spayed. Poor girl lost a few nipples while hunting. :eek:

Curious why it still would have happened?

My 1st setter's went away after she was spayed, I did also have the vet remove most of the breast tissue as well.
 

V-John

New member
I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise from breeding, or to get a dog from a reputable breeder, etc. etc.
Rather though, I can tell you that having your dog health tested is a real benefit in that you might think that she has good hips, heart, eyes, thyroid, or elbows, or what have you, and she very well could. But she also could be a carrier for bad hips, thyroid, etc. and can obviously throw that in the litter.

In my breed, it certainly is important to test for this sort of thing, and have proof of this, in order to place pups. I can guarantee you I wouldn't buy from a owner that didn't health test their dog. Yes, it won't stop the pups from displaying the traits, but it certainly helps hedge your bets against having those negative traits.

But to each their own.

"If you're a breeder with more than 4 or 5 dogs, having all of them in the house and involved with family is simply not going to happen. Not enough time in the day."

This is simply false. If a person dedicates the time to the puppies and the dogs, then absolutely it can and is done. We raised a litter. The pups were in the kitchen. We have more then 4 or 5 dogs in the house. We made sure that the pups were handled, and played with and ran almost every day. They ran through the house, the yard, on 1200 acres. They were on pigeons, quail. They took trips to Colorado, on hunting trips, and all over the place. They met kids, dogs, strange people. We had a set up so they were practically on their way to housebreaking when they went home. They watched everything that went on in the kitchen. So to say that is simply not going to happen is simply false. All of that being said, I don't have kids or the various things that go along with that.

That being said, raising a litter in the home is certainly appealing and I think a lot of people like that.

As far as the original question is concerned, I don't see that there is a ethical problem with it per se. My bitch has had a false pregnancy. That wasn't an issue in our decision to breed her.

But for other reasons, I don't think I will breed her again.

Golden, heart murmurs, from my research is not an inherited trait. Check that. Some can be, some aren't. At least that's what I'm hearing. I have a call in to a heart specialist to confirm.

Shane, I'm not talking down to you, and hope it doesn't appear that way. I've always felt that we have very similar outlooks on things here.
If you need any help, don't hesitate to call or PM. I'm not super experienced either, but sometimes another way of doing things can help out.
 
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goldenboy

Active member
Golden, heart murmurs, from my research is not an inherited trait. Check that. Some can be, some aren't. At least that's what I'm hearing. I have a call in to a heart specialist to confirm.
My one pup that I referred to had a valve that didn't close when it was born, but I couldn't sell it to that person without revealing the condition. I checked with the University of Minnesota and the fix was $5,000! I then offered the puppy to the buyer for free and told her what it would take to fix the valve. She declined the dog and I gave it to a rescue organization. But I do agree with you on having your dog tested. I can't stress the importance of that enough!
 

KsHusker

Member
..................

Shane, I'm not talking down to you, and hope it doesn't appear that way. I've always felt that we have very similar outlooks on things here.
If you need any help, don't hesitate to call or PM. I'm not super experienced either, but sometimes another way of doing things can help out.


Dont think so at all. And I agree that over the years it has appeared we have had similar outlooks on things.


Still mulling my decision, but am thinking I will look to breed her then have her spayed after.


Anyone have an opinion on Morris Gundogs? He's near Manhattan I believe so VJohn you may have heard of him.


Today I went out with my buddy - only hunted 3 quarters, found 6 possibly 7 coveys of quail and about 15-20 pheasants, 2 roosters in range pointed, one in the bag, the other I was practicing a conservation technique using my gun and simply scaring the bird so he learns not to hold the next time. HA

According to the Alpha Rosie ran just over 20 miles Not sure why I didnt buy one of these earlier - neat little tool. Was able to "watch" her handle a couple coveys of quail in the plum thickets. You could tell they were running quite a bit on her as she had to point/relocate a few times - she was about 250 yards away from us when she pinned them at the property line at the road. Without it I'd have spent the following 30 mins or hour looking for her. Thanks to it we were able to go right to her and move on with our hunt. My buddy ended up with 2 in one shot from that bunch. Great day to take off work. :cool:
 
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